Nobody Is Getting Left Behind (Because The Rapture Is Never, Ever Going To Happen)

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I’m sorry Left Behind fans.

But, there is no such thing as the rapture.

Of course, you couldn’t tell me this when I was in high school because I was head over heels in love with biblical prophecy. Nothing else mattered. I was utterly convinced that the book of Revelation was a road map to the future and Jack Van Impe was the prophet who could unlock the apocalyptic map for me. I even had the Jack Van Impe Prophecy Bible, leather bound and color coordinated to let me know exactly what each verse prophesied. So sure was I that the rapture would happen at any moment, that I believed it to be my mission from God to scare let everyone around me know that the end was nigh so they would not be left behind.

I was genuinely shocked every morning when I would wake up to find myself still in my bed and not standing at the pearly gates.

Was my math wrong?

Had I missed a color coded clue in my prophecy bible?

Surely Jack Van Impe hadn’t misread a sign in the news. So why hadn’t I been raptured already??

This went on for years, until finally I entered college.

A christian college, of course. Where else would an end times expert go to school?

I was a religion major. So, I decided I would clear this rapture matter up once and for all with one of my religion professors as soon as possible and finally get a precise date for the rapture.

After all, isn’t that the whole point of being a New Testament scholar? To be able to predict the rapture?

Not long after I arrived at college I had a meeting with my advisor, a professor in New Testament theology. I thought surely, if anyone understands the signs of the times as well as Jack Van Impe, it would be him. So, I confidently marched into his office, instantly recognized that his efforts to work through my class schedule were a not so subtle invitation to discuss the apocalypse, and spent the next 20 minutes or so explaining to him why I knew that the end was nigh and why I was so frustrated that this fact wasn’t the only thing we talked about in class or the only thing my pastor preached about every Sunday morning.

Fortunately for me, he was a patient man.

It was almost as if he had heard this speech before from some other young end times expert. While I hated his response at the time, his words forever changed my perspective on biblical prophecy and the rapture.

He said, “Here’s my problem with Jack Van Impe and guys like him: They are trying to pinpoint places on prophetic map that simply doesn’t exist. Are we living in the last days? Absolutely, but we have been ever since Jesus walked out of the tomb on Easter morning.”

He said more, but to be honest I don’t remember it because I was floored. How dare he say there is no prophetic roadmap?! Had he not read any of the Left Behind books?? It was all there in black and white!!

When I finally calmed down about a week later, I decided to investigate his nonsensical claim further and attempt to do so with as open a mind as I possible could. It wasn’t an easy process. Or a short one. But once I reached the end of my prophetic investigative journey I reached one clear and indisputable conclusion.

I was wrong.

It hurt to admit it and to be honest it kinda still does. But there was no way around it – the rapture was never, ever going to happen.

You see, I had made the same mistake that Jack Van Impe makes. He shouts (or at least passionately pleas) the loudest and only hears others like him shouting that the end is nigh. So, over time he becomes convinced that the rapture is imminent, that he has it all (or at least a lot of it) figured out, and that everyone who disagrees will be left behind.

Like my prophetic hero, I was screaming the loudest that the rapture was imminent and I only surrounded myself with voices that agreed with me. Because of this, I was never able to hear a crucial piece of information: no one in the church has ever even believed in the rapture until the last 200 years or so.

The truth is most of us in the church are bad at church history.

This deficiency may seem inconsequential, but it’s actually a huge problem in an always connected world where a single viewpoint can quickly go viral and come to dominate the view of Christians everywhere regardless of whether or not it has any foundation in the historical faith of the church. All too often we get swept over by a tsunami of theology that stems from little more than a passing meme, an impassioned Facebook status, a viral blog post, or even a catchy bumper sticker. Everywhere we look people seem to be saying the same thing. So, eventually we just give up thinking for ourselves, assume that that many people can’t be wrong, and conform to the mob for fear of drowning in the sea of disagreement.

Unfortunately, just because you read it on the internet, that doesn’t make it true.

And just because they make a movie about it starring an Oscar winning actor, well, that doesn’t make it true either.

But if you do decide to shell out your hard earned money to go see Left Behind this weekend (though I can’t blame you; it’s all but impossible to look away from a train wreck), here are a few things to keep in mind.

First, as I said before, the idea of a rapture never even appears on the church’s radar until the late 18th and early 19th centuries. You would think that such a pivotal moment in the life of the church would get a least a brief mention by someone like Luther or Calvin or Aquinas or maybe Augustine. But there is only silence. 

Why?

Well, the first reason is fairly straightforward.

The term “rapture” appears no where in the Bible. Of course, neither does the word “trinity.” But the concept of a triune God does appear throughout the New Testament. While the idea of believers being “caught up in the air” is mentioned, it is metaphorically describing the Second Coming. Paul is not claiming, nor even implying that Christians will disappear before all hell breaks loose on earth.

In fact, (and this is probably the second biggest reason the great thinkers of the church don’t talk about the rapture) the very idea of the rapture is antithetical to the narrative of scripture.

Why?

Because the Bible is a story about a God who journeys with His people through hard times even when it is God who has unleashed the judgment. He doesn’t pluck them out of danger. Whether that danger is slavery in Egypt, wandering in the wilderness, exile in Babylon, the travails of Job, oppression under the Romans, or the persecution of the early church, God walks with God’s people through the valley of the shadow of death. He doesn’t snatch them out of it.

If that is true, then our love for the rapture reveals a lack of love for the very world Jesus came to save. The very idea of the church abandoning the world in its time of need is endemic of an American Christianity that is more focused on the self than the needs of the other, more gnostic (concerned with right ideas) than actually Christian, and hyper-focused on the hereafter to the detriment of the here and now. Yes, the Second Coming is important – but so is everything that happens before.

But perhaps the most important thing to remember is the book of Revelation is not a road map to the future. It is the declaration that Jesus will return, justice will be granted to the oppressed, and all things will be made new. But it is not attempting to give precise details on how that will happen.

Rather than an apocalyptic road map, Revelation is a book of worship. It exists to declare the glory, power, and grace of God. It is not a guidebook to the apocalypse.

Now, I absolutely believe that Jesus will return one day to wipe away every tear from our eyes and make all things new.

But that is the Second Coming, not the rapture. Those are two very, very different things. One allows us to neglect the present world and let it crumble away while we focus on our own eternal glory. The other beckons us to participate in God’s restoration of creation by loving His people and showing them how to live the life God intended until He does return to bring that work of redemption to final completion.

We are absolutely living in the last days, but as my professor said so long ago, we have been ever since Jesus walked about of the tomb on Easter morning.

So, let us live as if these truly are the last days, not by running around telling the world “Good luck, we’ll see you later!” But by incarnating the love of God to a world desperately in need of His grace.

By doing that, we affirm the truth and hope of the resurrection while showing the world that the return of our Lord is not something to be feared.

It’s something to celebrate.

 

As I’m always welcoming new people to the blog I sometimes like to revisit an old post or two that sparked a good conversation, but may have been missed by those who weren’t around when it was originally posted. A slightly different version of this post first appeared in May, 2011.

 

283 Comments
  • Tim
    October 3, 2014

    Well said, Zach. Then again I’m a-mil and a-trib so maybe I’m predisposed to your thinking here anyway. Your journey through the doctrines is fascinating, and it sounds like that NT professor you had was a gem of a teacher.
    Cheers,
    Tim

  • Abby Normal
    October 3, 2014

    I had an equally patient bio professor who sat down with me when I showed up in his office with one of my mom’s Ken Hamm books to talk about why this spiffy new idea called intelligient design really aught to be given some class time.

  • Andy
    October 3, 2014

    I don’t have a big problem with these movies. I hope it’s a blockbuster and that a lot of people will crack open their bibles because of it. Zack, and a lot of other people seemed to have landed on their feet whilst believing in this evil rapture doctrine.

  • daryl carpenter
    October 3, 2014

    So the rapture is ridiculous but the second coming, yeah, that’s totally legit.

    How is a purportedly magic Jew one day appearing in the sky and wiping away every tear anymore a sensible belief than the rapture, other than it might have a little more support for it within a flawed ancient book, portions of which imply that Jesus was supposed to return within the lifetime of his disciples?*

    The fact that Rapture belief is only a few centuries old doesn’t completely rule it out as happening. The Reformers only came on the scene 500 years ago. An idea’s newness isn’t necessarily a sign of it being incorrect. Who knows, Darby may have got lucky, as Joseph Smith or the Jehovah’s Witnesses may have struck gold in their exegesis. I think it’s incredibly unlikely, but new interpretations of scripture are not out of the realms of possiblity.

    [Revelation] is the declaration that Jesus will return, justice will be granted to the oppressed, and all things will be made new.

    Why should anyone believe what the Book of Revelation says? Why have such confidence in its message and contents? Saying that because it’s in the bible is not a very good answer. It’s just presupposing the bible’s inspiration, and that is circular reasoning.

    I understand it’s a faith position you hold, and as I’m not a Christian I’m unlikely to agree with it, but even if I admit that the second coming is an important part of Christian doctrine (and it is), it’s still a mightily extraordinary event to believe will occur, and in terms of nuttiness it’s not really all that far away from holding that billions of Christians (give or take the Catholics, depending how ecumenical you are) are going to be supernaturally lifted vertically into heaven (because heaven is ‘up there’ somewhere, right?) to be with God.

    *preterist get out clause notwithstanding

    • Don
      October 3, 2014

      Actually it is nowhere implied that Jesus was supposed to return within the lifetime of His disciples. I think you are refering to where Jesus says within a generation (40 years) these things will come to pass. Many think He is refering to His second coming here but He is actually quoting Daniel 7 (“coming on clouds”) which is His ascension to the throne. So instead of coming down it is a coming up of sorts.

  • Jon
    October 3, 2014

    Great Post ! I can’t help but laugh that “bible christians” boycotted the Noah movie for “straying from the text” and then they flock in droves to see this unbiblical fictional movie as if it was a perfect representation of what is to come.

    • Don Lowery
      October 3, 2014

      I was one of those “Bible Christians” who went and saw “Noah” the afternoon it came out. Loved the movie and have a copy of it on DVD. The difference between me and the others who were crying about how it strayed from the text and don’t/refuse to understand/care that the director/writer could care less what fundamentalist “christians” who don’t read their Bible outside of a very narrow viewpoint have to say. He was not making this movie for this vocal minority.

      Myself…I understood where the source material came from and having been a minor in film while in college…the film was a fantastic film. What it wasn’t was a literal retelling of the King James Bible meant for someone in the Bible Noose to enjoy. Then again…you get many of these fundamentalist literalistic “christians” who think “Son of God”/”God is not Dead”/”Left Behind” were the greatest thing to ever hit the screen. I will not waste my time with either one of these since I understand where the source material came from AND that these directors couldn’t hold a candle from a hundred miles away and be able to produce something worth putting on film…much less being able to be watched.

      • Numan Today
        October 9, 2014

        You have got to be kidding…you say you were a so-called “Bible Christian” and “LOVED” the distorted, neurotic movie “Noah”. You just shot yourself in the foot in your credibility. You a classic false teacher.

        • Don Lowery
          October 9, 2014

          Must be nice being a fundamentalist troll. The God of the WHOLE BIBLE is love and came into the world to save the world…rather than one who is looking to be worshiped by those willing for others to die because of a lie. You may call me names and disagree that God is love…but I do know my God of love and hope is more than powerful to allow all of us to escape the lies of hate and darkness of Lucifer that American fundamentalism embodies

          • Eli Odell Jackson
            October 23, 2014

            The fact that you esteem the praise of the world greater than that of the brethren of Christ makes it plain that you’re of the devil yourself.
            God is love, bible plainly teaches it, you reinterpret that as: love is ‘this’ therefore God is ‘this’.
            What is love? Bible answers that too.
            And what I see none of is love from you, just reviling, and bitter, hateful criticism, from a worldly man who esteems the world and Hollywood above the brethren, Christ, and the word of God.

          • Don Lowery
            October 23, 2014

            With your use of that disgusting symbol of hate as your picture…I refuse to answer any type of questions from a racist who stands for the opposite of love.

  • CK
    October 3, 2014

    The Bible can not be interpreted as merely a religious and historical book. It is meant to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit of God. Noah’s story is exactly contrary to your claim of God to “saving His people from evil” and is referenced in the new testament when speaking of end times. The word “rapture” is an interpretation of the Latin “catching away” theme found in several places of scripture. Jesus himself referenced this. Pray for an enlightening and filling of the Holy Spirit. You will feel differently about these end time events. And remember…the “understanding” of Revelation was sealed up u til the time God allowed…which is now! Blessings on your journey to truth! I recommend “Holy Fire” by R.T.Kendall…a former reformer like you.

  • Cris
    October 3, 2014

    So nicely put. Thanks

  • Jeremy Doan
    October 3, 2014

    You claim “no one in the church has ever even believed in the rapture until the last 200 years or so.” This is categorically wrong. See here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/brief-history-of-rapture

    • Joy
      October 3, 2014

      Great article.

    • ZackHunt
      October 3, 2014

      I think we already talked on Twitter, but just in case I’ll repeat it here. That article does not demonstrate that anyone talked about the rapture before the 18th century. While well footnoted, it only cites 1 primary source – the Shepherd of Hermas – which does not refer to the rapture or anything similar.

      I am certainly open to correct, but in order to prove the rapture was a point of conservation before the 18th century, you need to present occurrences of that happening in primary sources. Secondary sources, like the ones cited in that article, do nothing to prove your point unless they are quoting primary sources, in which case, once again, you would want to cite the primary source.

      • Jeremy Doan
        October 3, 2014

        This article is a bit more complete: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Watson-PretribulationalRapt.pdf
        It contains numerous references to people who wrote about some form of Rapture theology, even some who used the actual word “rapture”.
        I’ll agree that the Shepherd of Hermas is a weak and inconclusive example. But there are others. The last page of that paper has a nice summary. And that paper is filled with citations for primary sources.

        • ZackHunt
          October 3, 2014

          Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume a couple of people were talking about the same sort of rapture in the 17th century that others were a century later (though from what I see in that article that was not the case). Other than the relative obscurity of those folks, how do you account for the total silence about the rapture for the preceding 15 centuries of the Christian faith?

          • Jeremy Doan
            October 3, 2014

            We could ask the same about the theology of the Reformers. How is it possible that nearly all theologians misinterpreted the doctrine of salvation for 1500 years?
            We could also take an example from mathematics. It took mathematicians several thousand years to “dis-prove” one of Euclid’s axioms (at least, prove it wasn’t necessary). Do we reject non-Euclidean geometry because it arrived in the 18th or 19th century?
            I don’t have an answer for why there is a silence, but that silence alone is not enough to invalidate the theology (which is what you seem to be implying). Even if we assume your claim, that the Rapture is an 18th century invention, we should judge the theology on its biblical merits. To be far, you do this in the article. However, I am not interested in taking on that argument here. I just wanted to show there is some evidence against that specific claim.

          • Don Lowery
            October 3, 2014

            Even if we assume your claim, that the Rapture is an 18th century
            invention, we should judge the theology on its biblical merits.

            If you look at Darby and where he got his idea…you are pointed to around the year 1830 where he visited a woman who had visions about this. He was impressed enough with her to believe her. The year and decades around 1830 are very important for looking all all manner of heresies like the rapture. Joseph Smith of the Mormon Church was having his visions during this same time frame. Then you look at the rise of the Seventh-Day Adventists around the same time frame…as well as many other sects which came of age around the 1820-1840’s.

            The point is that many of the same beliefs came about the same time frame as this heresy. You believe in one…you may as well believe in them all. They all have the same source and are as trustworthy as the others.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy
            October 4, 2014

            If you look at Darby and where he got his idea…you are pointed to
            around the year 1830 where he visited a woman who had visions about
            this.

            I understand it wasn’t “a woman”, it was a teenage girl. I once got turned into a pile of rocks for wondering out loud if this was a “teenage trance channeler” situation.

            And the Mormons, the proto-Seventh Day Adventists (the Millerites), and Spiritualism all originated in the same general area as well as around the same time. Upstate New York, called “The Burned-Over District” because everybody there had been burned out by Revival after Revival after Revival. One Jesuit described it as “the Southern California of its day”, and being from SoCal I know about Weird Religion Capitals of the country.

          • Don Lowery
            October 4, 2014

            Actually…I’m living in Colorado Springs…so I’m living in the Weird Religion Capital of the country…with Focus on the Satan as the head of this Capital.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy
            October 5, 2014

            Then I’m just glad the Weird Religion Capital has shifted away from where I am.

            Isn’t “Colo Spgs” also the site of the Air Force Academy? You know, the USAF with all those arming/launch keys for nuclear missiles?

          • Don Lowery
            October 5, 2014

            Yep….the Academy is here on the north side of town. Focus on Satan is just down the corner from there.

            On the other hand…where the arming/launch keys are located at is NORAD in Cheyenne Mountain on the southwest side of town. If you used to watch Stargate SG-1…this is the place where it was said to have happened. Funny thing…the show at times was supposed to show Colorado Springs…but for some reason…Vancouver BC looks nothing like this place. At least they have art/culture…while our claim to fame is too many fundamentalists wanting to force everyone at the bases to fall down and worship them as the Golden Calf.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy
            October 6, 2014

            Never mind Colo Spgs on Stargate SG-1, what about “Area 51” establishing shots being in a NW boreal forest? I didn’t know there were forests in the Nevada Basin!

          • Headless Unicorn Guy
            October 6, 2014

            Yep….the Academy is here on the north side of town. Focus on Satan is just down the corner from there.

            Like they’re sucking up close to Power, trying to influence it.

            Internet Monk said it best with “Remember James Dobson? Did a lot of good things before fear of homosexuals drove him off a cliff with his constituency in the car.”

          • Don Lowery
            October 6, 2014

            I remember working at a religious station back in the ’80’s and couldn’t stand running his BS back then when he and Focus on Satan weren’t as rabid as they have been in the last 20 years. On the other hand…I remember back when I was a teenager and Anita Bryant was going full rabid of the mouth. Wonder if she became gay from being so obsessed about it?

          • Joe Padovano
            October 4, 2014

            So sorry, but you need to study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of Truth. Yes, it is true that around the mid 1800’s Satan brought up sects to counteract that which God was doing, as Satan always does. God brought to light that which was obscured by the church of the Dark Ages. Why was it called the “Dark Ages”? It was because the Bible was removed from man and only the clergy was allowed to read and translate for the laity, with gross misinterpretation! Only the Latin language Bible (would that be where the Darby Bible originated?) was allowed by the Catholic Church, and only the clergy had access to these Bibles, ergo, many of the Reformers came from this system

          • Don Lowery
            October 4, 2014

            Too bad that you are only concerned with the sin of those in power of the “Church” during the time. Generally…it was only the clergy who had access to the Bible…but when your population (except for the clergy) couldn’t read…you have what happened during the Middle Ages…rather than the “Dark Ages”.

            Then again…with our current fundamentalists reacting like the “Church” of that day did in demanding that science and whatever they don’t understand or refuse to understand…I would consider them in the “Dark Ages”. Actually…I believe we’re seeing and have been seeing where these sects are going to do their best to make their heresies a reality for the rest of us.

          • Don Lowery
            October 4, 2014

            Too bad that you are only concerned with the sin of those in power of the “Church” during the time. Generally…it was only the clergy who had access to the Bible…but when your population (except for the clergy) couldn’t read…you have what happened during the Middle Ages…rather than the “Dark Ages”.

            Then again…with our current fundamentalists reacting like the “Church” of that day did in demanding that science and whatever they don’t understand or refuse to understand…I would consider them in the “Dark Ages”. Actually…I believe we’re seeing and have been seeing where these sects are going to do their best to make their heresies a reality for the rest of us.

          • Chad Daniels
            October 13, 2014

            “science and whatever they don’t understand being banned outright and suppressed”

            YOu don’t happen to believe in theistic evolution do you?

          • Don Lowery
            October 13, 2014

            With the universe being at least 13 billion years old from what we currently understand and God created it all however many billions years ago he did. The creationists or whatever they want to call themselves today are just those who can’t even read their Bibles and have no use for anything which would allow them to use their minds as He intended.

          • Chad Daniels
            October 14, 2014

            “With the universe being at least 13 billion years old from what we currently understand ”

            Please explain how you believe that the earth can be dated accurately. What metric is used to date the earth.

            Looking forward to your answer.

          • Don Lowery
            October 14, 2014

            Since you obviously have an axe to grind about the use of science against the literally reading of the Bible…no answer I could or would provide will be satisfactory since you’ve already made up your mind.

          • Eli Odell Jackson
            October 23, 2014

            Seems like you’ve done the same buddo.
            But to attach God’s name to your own foolish heretic apostasy… And contrary to the very word He left, our only unquestionable testament to His nature. That’s of the devil, can’t say nothing else, of the devil.

          • Don Lowery
            October 23, 2014

            Calling me Satanic and say I’m practicing practicing apostasy with a picture of hate and racism as you troll for a fight. I had relatives who believed as you do and just because they believe that burning crosses in African-American yards and killing those who were born as much as a child of God as both of us doesn’t make what you believe Christian…just the opposite. How’s the cult of the Klan working out for you?

          • Chad Daniels
            October 13, 2014

            Well said!

            Using church history, I can “prove” that salvation by faith alone (sola Fide) was invented in the 1500’s by martin luther.

            Of course I don’t believe that non-sense, and I am shocked to see the amount “christians” who go outside the Bible, and use lack of evidence to support their faulty views.

            I have a question for all post tribbers. When Jesus was speaking to the Jews about his second coming, he said:

            Luke 12:36 – “And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.”

            Question, what wedding is Christ returning from, and who is he picking up?

          • NotWhatItSeems
            October 7, 2014

            When was the printing press first invented and used? Are there not ideas that are usually not written down excepting in the form of a story? The written records of anything in the original or translation are done according the capabilities of the individuals doing it? Some individuals talk and some write, Those who write down what another says does it according to their understanding of what is being said. Why did Jesus tell parables? Who wrote down his words and acts? When?

          • Chad Daniels
            October 13, 2014

            Are you Catholic? I’m not sure of your denomination, but using early church sources, I can “prove” that no one taught that Salvation was by faith alone for 1500 years. Of course I don’t believe this, but you’re using the same Catholic argument.

      • NotWhatItSeems
        October 4, 2014

        What is written is but a dimension of what happens. How wound you handle the unwritten? Why

      • Gary M Fisher
        July 8, 2017

        Jesus was the first to introduce the concept of the rapture. In John 14, He stated that He would go and prepare of place for us. This confused the disciples. They were familiar with the theology that a Messiah would come and establish a Kingdom and restore Israel on earth, but not with the theology that took them to Heaven first.
        Also, II Thessalonians 2:2-3, Paul declares that the “day of the Lord” (Tribulation) and the appearance of Antichrist would not occur until the “departure” (apostasy) comes first.

  • Jason Michael Bradley
    October 3, 2014

    Spaulding? He was a patient man? Lord knows Hoskins isn’t patient. Who was your advisor?

    • ZackHunt
      October 3, 2014

      It was Andy Johnson. He was only there my freshman year, but he was a great prof.

      • God-optimist
        October 4, 2014

        If it happens you can tap, me on the back and say see I told you so.The whole dispensational thing is a convoluted use of the scriptures.Start from Genesis oh yeah if this is the age of grace then there is no sin to answer for like 2 Corinthians 5: God was in Christ reconciling the world unto him and to us has been granted the ministry of reconcilliation

        • Headless Unicorn Guy
          October 6, 2014

          Dispensationalism began as an attempt to reconcile ALL the discrepancies in the Bible, under the idea that all those 66+ books were one big Spiritual Engineering Manual of Word-for-Word FACT, FACT, FACT. The only way to deal with the discrepancies was to split them off into different “dispensations” with different rules.

          Chaplain Mike over at Internet Monk once theorized that the Age of Reason and Industrial Revolution (with their secular miracles) caused a shift in how we viewed the Bible — from a collection of Old Stories about God and Man to a Secular Engineering Manual, from Story to a checklist of FACTS.

          Example: Dispy Darby’s take on Revelation, which has become near-universal among Evangelicals as well as the bane of anyone writing in the Christian Apocalyptic genre. Revelation becomes nothing more than an End Times Checklist and the writer has to hit all the checklist points, Check! Check! Check! Characters become nothing more than roving POVs to witness the Checklist events going down one-by-one then breaking the fourth wall to tell the reader “What We Just Witnessed Fulfills Such-and-Such Prophecy!” (Jerry “Buck” Jenkins compounded this by limiting the POVs to those of the two Author Self-Inserts, resulting in having to tell a story of literally Cosmic scope through only his two Self-Inserts, who now have to jet around everywhere to Witness every event on the Checklist. This resulted in his shtick of telling the story (18 to 22 volumes worth) mostly through the Author Self-Inserts’ “As-You-Know” Idiot Conversations on the phone.)

          “When you point at something with your finger, the dog sniffs your finger. To a dog, a finger is a finger and that is that.”
          — C.S.Lewis

          “His mind is made of wheels and metal.”
          — Treebeard re Saruman

  • Matthew Bilyeu
    October 3, 2014

    The word “Rapture” does actually appear in the Bible. Not in the Greek version, but in the Latin Vulgate “Rapturas” is in the book of Thessalonians. It is from this word that we derive “Rapture.”

    I studied this too at an SBC Bible College. Most of the reasons for/against the rapture aren’t really relevant. For example, people argue that the rapture couldn’t happen because God wouldn’t “protect” Christians from tribulation. That assumes that the point of the rapture is to protect Christians. The rapture could easily be God’s way of setting the stage for end times events. The United States doesn’t feature in end times prophecy, and an estimated 30 million Americans are christians. If that many people vanished, then the US would fall into obscurity on the world stage. This may be a necessary condition for the rise of the Anti-Christ. I’m not saying that is the reason, I’m just saying there are other plausible reasons rather than protecting Christians.

    The most compelling reason to believe in the rapture is the different nature of the rapture and Christ’s second coming. The rapture is sudden and unexpected and the second coming is preceded by signs and events. The scriptures say that we won’t know when Christ would come back for his people, but if this event is concurrent with Christ’s second coming then we could set our watches once the tribulation starts.

    • ZackHunt
      October 3, 2014

      You are correct that the word rapture does derive from the Latin. However, since Thessalonians was written in Greek, not Latin, citing a translation doesn’t give any substantial credence to the argument that rapture is either a biblical word or concept.

      Nevertheless, you arguments in favor of the rapture are still based on the central point of my post – treating the Book of Revelation like a literal or only slightly metaphorical roadmap to the future is a fundamental misreading of the text.

      • Matthew Bilyeu
        October 3, 2014

        With all due respect, you could make the same argument to say that the word “Love” appears nowhere in the bible because “Love” is an English word and the bible wasn’t written in English. I’m saying that our word from Rapture does come from words used in scripture. I agree that it doesn’t mean that the doctrine of the Rapture event is a biblical doctrine any more than the absence of the word Trinity makes the Trinity doctrine UNbiblical. The words appearance or absence from the bible is independent of the truthfulness of the doctrine that word is used to represent.

        I think that the bible clearly contains passages depicting events that have not happened yet. It is not unbiblical or unchristian to take those prophecies for what they are. They aren’t a roadmap, but they are a testimony to the awesomeness of God.

        • Jason Teal
          October 7, 2014

          While you may find the word “rapture” translated in some way from the greek, you will never find the “Left Behind”-John Hagee” interpretation of what that is. That sole passage in 1 Thessalonians doesn’t, in any way, speak of a ‘rapture’ in the way it’s been purported since Darby found that young girl who claimed to have a vision. And her vision did not, in any way, contain all the nonsense that Tim LaHaye lays out. It simply doesn’t exist.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            You sound like your playing a game of “Gossip”… none of your statement of Darby are verified except in the minds of those who want to disparage his work in Bible expostion. You are only using human cut-downs as cover for the fact you don’t have any support in reality of history…no model for the future. You just criticize with no evidence to what YOU think is a working worldview model only running down those who have the concern to put it out there for the scoffers who are supposed to be their co-workers for Christ.

        • Theo
          October 9, 2014

          Actually love does appear in the Bible. Obviously it’s not the English word Love. There are actually a few different types of the term love in the Greek form. Why are you trying to compare that with the the fact that he told you the new testament was Greek, not Latin?

          • Matthew Bilyeu
            October 9, 2014

            Because the word “Harpazo” does appear in the Bible. It was then translated into the word “Rapturas” which we later transliterated into “Rapture”. So it isn’t accurate to say that the word “Rapture” doesn’t appear in the Bible just because it was transliterated from a Latin version rather than from the Greek. So “Rapture” does appear in the Bible as “Harpazo”, just like “Love” appears in the Bible as “agape” (or philia, or eros, etc).

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Matthew meant the English word “love” does not appear in the Bible…Matthew wasn’t saying phileho, agape or eros didn’t. Matt was implying that it’s just a silly word game being thrown out as a guise against a strong point that Zach (and apparently you) refuses to acknowledge. Can’t you get it through your head that the stages of historical international languages in Western Civilization went from GREEK, to LATIN, then various derivatives of Latin and then eventually to ENGLISH, which is probably how you read it…THAT is why we keep repeating that our English word “rapture” came from a Latin root…it is closer to the original translation from the Greek than English is…there are many “tranportings”, i.e, ‘raptures’ that take place in the Bible Enoch was caught up (Gen.5:24) using the Hebrew word “laqach”, the Greek word “harpazo” (same MEANING in spite of being translated into a Latin root word in English called “rapture”) is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Jesus “transported” the boat with Him and the disciples instantly in John 6:21. You CANNOT deny the existence of God’s transporting various people through time and space in an instant no matter what language you describe it in.

      • Numan Today
        October 13, 2014

        Taking your logic then you couldn’t accept anything in English either. Latin was the international language in the early Church, just as English is in the present. Citing the meaning of the original language is VERY MUCH a substantial credence…being unteachable is the problem. Your Post-Mill’s don’t attempt to evangelize anywhere near the level of the PreTrib, PreMill’s with their urgent motivations…you just like to criticize any efforts to and refuse to help reach the fallen human race…I think your services must consist of nothing but teaching methods in disparaging the Futurists by spiritualizing the obviously literal passages and making literal those verses which are symbolic.

    • Mickey Rock
      October 3, 2014

      Nero was the antichrist. Most of Revelations already happened 2k yrs ago.

      • Paul W.
        October 5, 2014

        Dear Mickey Rock, you said,

        “Nero was the antichrist. Most of Revelations already happened 2k yrs ago.”

        The Bible states that there are many antichrists (1 John 2:18). If you are implying Nero was the one and only antichrist, I would disagree with you on the basis of 1 John 2:18. If you are stating Nero was one of many antichrists, I can agree.

        When you state that most of the book of Revelation happened 2,000 years ago, I would agree that the book was given to the Apostle John 2,000 years ago. If you are a partial preterist I would agree that many similarities exist to things prophesied in the book of Revelation and to events in church history, but it appears to me that most of the events predicted in the book of Revelation are ultimately still future and remain yet to be fulfilled.

        History provides many similarities to events in the book of Revelation, but in my mind none of the historical events from the past which I have examined literally fulfills in exacting and exhaustive detail the predictions found in the book of Revelation.

      • Matt K
        October 7, 2014

        Sorry to burst your bubble a bit, but Nero could not have possibly been THE Antichrist. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 says that ‘the lawless one’ (i.e. Antichrist) will be ‘destroyed’ by Jesus. Nero wasn’t ‘destroyed,’ he committed suicide. Soooo, as you’ve gotten that one wrong, I think your view that most of Revelation happened 2000 years ago is highly suspect.

        • Mickey Rock
          October 7, 2014

          It’s actually a rather mainstream view among Anglican theologians like Barbara R. Rossing author of The Rapture Exposed. I think someone else might be trapped in a dispensationalist bubble. 🙂

          • Matt K
            October 7, 2014

            Well, even if it is the view among “mainstream” Anglican theologians, then I would say they are wrong. If Nero was the Antichrist, then he was a terrible representation based on what the Bible says about him. Not to mention the fact that he committed suicide. He wasn’t exactly “consumed with the breath of His mouth,” and destroyed “by the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thes 2:8) It sounds to me like somebody is stuck in a covenantal , preterist bubble.

          • Jason
            October 8, 2014

            1) Paul was not a prophet.
            2) Revelation is apocalyptic literature. This genre has very specific purposes and needs to be read in a particular way (not prophetically).

          • Ralph A Jansen
            October 9, 2014

            Paul was a prophet. (I don’t think that word means what you think it means.)

            Revelation may be apocalyptic literature, but as a covenant friend once told me, he could only see the very end of Revelation being prophecy. (He could not wrap his beliefs around that chapter. It would not fit.) If you look at history, whenever the church and God’s people have had trouble, there was always somewhere to go. The last great movement of Christians to escape persecution was the Puritans moving to the New World. Now, there is no where else to go…but up. If there is great persecution in the whole world, there is no where to escape as there was in the past.
            As for God separating his people from the troubles around them, Egypt is a great example. Did the Israelites in Goshen face the same tribulations (plagues) that the Egyptians did, without any help from God? Well, no. God made a separation between Goshen and Egypt so while Egypt was suffering under locusts, frogs, darkness, these things were unknown in Goshen. God actually does help/separate His people from trouble. So when trouble comes to the whole world, how will he separate Christians from it?

          • jedi_penguin
            October 8, 2014

            I’m pretty sure that Barbara Rossing is Lutheran. She used to go to my church. 🙂 Incredibly nice lady.

          • Beverly Payne Henson
            October 12, 2014

            Do you get the irony of your statement that it is a rather mainstream view among Anglican theologians? Do you realize how “mainstream” the belief in Rapture is, especially in America? As for your assertion that Nero is the lawless one and most of Revelation was already fulfilled, both you and Ms. Rossing need to do further research as there are better candidates from history, such as Antiochus, who actually ruled over Israel and who actually defiled the Temple by sacrificing swine on the alter in the Temple, as well as erecting a statue of Zeus on he Temple Mount, forbidding circumcision,and outlawing the Torah and other Jewish scriptures as well as confiscating many of the sacred Temple instruments. He would come much closer to fulfilling the prophecies of the antichrist than Nero, but you know…mainstream and all.

    • Paul Curd
      October 4, 2014

      Humbly .. and pasted from a personal post on FB a few weeks ago. The original post, a reply, and then my response:

      Hollywood decides once again that the long term and deep seated cost of misappropriation is a price worth paying for the immediacy of profit

      Eschatologically erroneous in the extreme! 1John 4:7 ..” for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.”

      this is not a rant, rants are longer ..

      ..

      So everyone would be part of the rapture?

      ..

      Thank you for your attentive read of my words and their inference Pauline, and Bless you for your kind heart that you read it that way. Indeed, were the transliteration of the Greek word ??????, taken to be “snatched away” in its final form, then at least all those who Love would be part of the rapture. But before we conclude proceedings, wouldn’t one be being a little remiss, if not down right crazy not questioning things just a little bit further. To begin, the Greek word ?????? can also be rightfully transliterated as “snatched upon”. It would seem from an ontological perspective of those with even a slight awareness of how that which moves beyond moves within, that this rendering would sit more sensibly with our understanding of the universe. That there may come a point in time where our subjective experience may result in a different realised state through the intervention of the Divine, is potentially not unrealistic. Whether this will or won’t occur, or has and is happening already by degree is possibly the point in question. However, all of this is based upon a ‘secret’ told to ‘St’ Paul alone. Without going into a didactic about the purpose and journey of Scripture, ‘St’ Paul’s ‘teachings’ and how they sit alongside the Johannine Corpus, I think we can say, respectfully, rapture schrapture .. and if we are concerned about what others say will be in the future, then just Love, there we find rest, and there we find Peace.

      ..

      Just MHO. Blessings Always

    • Paul W.
      October 4, 2014

      Dear Matthew Bilyeu,
      you stated that, ” The rapture is sudden and unexpected and the second coming is preceded by signs and events.” Your statement, I believe, needs clarification.

      A question might help clarify the biblical view on the rapture. Here is the question, “For whom is the rapture sudden and unexpected?” Some claim, contrary to Scripture, that the rapture is sudden and unexpected for Christians! I noticed the comment of K. Elizabeth Danahy below:

      “I grew up in fear that the rapture was imminent and I’d never be able to look forward to anything in life. . . Which eventually led to doubts and questions and research, and finally the conclusion: the rapture isn’t real.
      Now I can look forward to life.”

      I do not agree with her conclusion that the rapture is unreal, but I do agree that a signless any moment rapture for vigilant believers is unbiblical, and I do agree that misunderstandings about the rapture can lead to agonizing and tormenting fear and anguish, which is not what the Lord desires.

      Some churches and denominations and religious organizations erroneously teach the rapture is sudden and unexpected and signless for vigilant believers, which is in direct contradiction to 1 Thess. 5:2 and Rev. 3:3 and Heb. 10:25. The concept of a “thief” and of “theft” is involved in the rapture, that is certain, but the question is, “Who is the one who will experience a theft when the rapture occurs?” It is the unbeliever and the apostate for whom the rapture will be sudden and unexpected, because they are not watching the biblical signs for the rapture. the unbeliever’s believing friends and believing family members will be “stolen” from them at the rapture.

      The rapture does have biblical signs as the three verses cited above indicate, but it is those who are oblivious to the rapture signs who will be surprised and unprepared at the sudden event of the rapture.

    • Jason R
      October 5, 2014

      The idea behind the word and concept in Thessalonians was not the idea of going to meet Him in the sky, and then leaving with Him. It was the same word that was used elsewhere in that culture to reference going to meet a conquering general who was returning to their home city. You didn’t go meet him and then leave with him. You went to meet him and welcome him back, escorting him into the city. Our own notion of rapture takes away from the word the meaning it had in the culture they used it in.

    • ken
      October 8, 2014

      Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (?Matthew? ?24?:?29-31?)

  • CA Resident
    October 3, 2014

    Great post. I grew up in the Lutheran church and went to a parochial school all the way until high school. I never remember learning about the rapture until I attended a non denominational seeker church with my wife. I agree that we should love all people and continue Jesus work here on earth and not focus on that which we cannot pinpoint. As an aside, my grandfather was a pastor in a church in the LCWS and was a good man and all the grandchildren enjoyed his stories about being a preacher in early 1900’s Arizona. After he passed away, I found an essay that he had written that cast the office of the pope as the anti Christ. A strange theory, and it kind of colored my recollections of him ever since I found that article. Strange how good people can believe such odd theories

    • Agent99SP
      October 5, 2014

      Your grandfather was right. His “theory” may only seem strange to you because the truth has been progressively cloaked from all/most of us, as Zack has described in his article, since the early 19th century.

      The teaching that the office of Pope is the Anti-christ (capital A, 1John 2:18), the man of sin and son of perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God ( (2Thess 2:3-4) was unanimously taught by the Protestant reformers, not the least of which was Martin Luther! The reformers, having been priests of the Harlot church and then come out of her (Rev 18), could clearly see, from their own experience and having their eyes & minds enlightened by the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, that this pretender was Christ’s enemy as he claims exclusive authority over the church, i.e. no one can be saved unless he/she is in his false church. Even worse, he claims a false basis for justification before God which is exclusively dispensed by him and his minions, the false priesthood and hierarchy of rome which robs its people of the true gospel and leads them to an eternity of condemnation.

      I hope you will consider the information found in the following link and have your eyes opened and your mind renewed concerning these things:

      http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp

      • Headless Unicorn Guy
        October 5, 2014

        His “theory” may only seem strange to you because the truth has been progressively cloaked from all/most of us…

        Except those of us who have been Illuminated with the Speshul Sekrit Knowledge (in Greek, “Occult Gnosis”) and (unlike all you sheeple) SEE through The Vast Conspiracy to What’s Really Going On.

        As in “Gnostic” = “He Who KNOWS Things”.

    • Agent99SP
      October 5, 2014

      I would just add that this displacement of the biblical teaching that the dynasty of Popes is the Antichrist, the man of sin & son of perdition whose coming has been after the working of Satan with all deceivableness of unrighteousness (2Thess 2:9-10), was a deliberate strategy of rome, executed by Jesuit priests such as Ribera, Bellarmine, Alcazar, Lacunza, Newmann, et.al, to deceive the true church, and the world.

      The biblical teaching was displaced by their futurist and preterist alternative prophetic interpretations to deliberately mask the identity of Antichrist as a key strategy of the Counter-Reformation which began with the formation of the “Society of Jesus” in the 16th century and continues to this day, often through false “protestant” teachers. The historic Protestant Reformation, resulting from the access to the Scriptures after centuries of its being hidden from the people by rome, had caused the Harlot church to be losing millions of adherents in Europe including from its aristocracy. If kings and princes didn’t submit to the Pope, then rome would lose its temporal power in the world. Hence, a Counter-Reformation which has gone to great lengths and used any tactic or strategy to re-gain what it had lost, as they subscribe to the idea that the ends justifies the means “to the greater glory of God” (AMGD).

      Rome has been craftily and cunningly re-acquiring its temporal power (as its a proxy for Satan) ever since. But don’t worry, because that Wicked has been and is being revealed and the Lord shall consume him with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy him with the brightness of His coming! (2Thess 2:8)

      • Headless Unicorn Guy
        October 5, 2014

        And now “It’s Teh Jesuits”, straight out of Alberto Rivera and Jack Chick!

        Though both trace back to a Victorian piece of anti-Catholic hate literature, Two Babylons by Hislop.

        • Agent99SP
          October 5, 2014

          Here’s a non-“Alberto Rivera & Jack Chick” source for you. Need any more, let me know and I’ll be glad to post them for you. I got a million of ’em!

          Nothing wrong with Rivera, Chick or Hislop on the evils of the Jesuits and the Harlot church of rome.

          Hope this helps…(but it assumes that you can sit still for an hour or so and listen to some intelligent teaching):

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs-b-m-vpgM

      • Eli Odell Jackson
        October 23, 2014

        Amen.
        They can call it ‘anti-Catholic hate literature’ all they want, every bible believer has always believed that romanism is of the devil.

  • Nora
    October 3, 2014

    My now-husband is the one who first dared me to look at the Bible as a metaphor and dated to tell me that while an immensely important document, our worship and relationship with God might be more important. I was someone who avoided the theology department like the plague in undergrad, telling myself they were hostile to anyone who stuck to the Bible (I now recognize I was just afraid of anyone who would challenge and make me think about the Bible), and was raised in a Biblicist home where Jack Van Impe is held in a place next to Christ. Then I went to seminary and had a prof who pointed out similarities between Genesis and the Enuma Elish (while making some remarks about the Exhile) and further challenged me. I was super bugged and prayed about it once, and heard a still small whisper say “What do you worship, me or my book? There is a difference.” Thank God for that difference. 🙂 Thank you for this article….sharing it right now.

    • Joseph Terrell
      October 4, 2014

      A home where Impe is held in a place next to Christ is not a Biblical home. I knew him in his earlier days when he actually came to local churches. He came to our church twice, then got to “big” for churches ans did only “crusades.”

      Any correspondence between the Bible text and mythical texts is irrelevant to the discussion of whether the Bible is true and how it should be interpreted. Furthermore, while we do not worship the Bible, we do worship the One whom it declares and the One who inspired men to write it. Christ frequently referred to it as did all the apostles. To dismiss it as just another primitive religious text is to reduce the Lord Jesus to nothing more than another religious reformer and reduce our understanding of God to subjective experience. it is true that for at least 2500 years God’s people worshiped God without a Bible, seeing that none of it was written until then. But that does not mean that the BIble is irrelevant. Rather, it shows us how blessed we are to live in an age when we have access to an essentially unchangeable record of what God has revealed.

      The problem with the dispensational view of the rapture is not that it is derived from a faulty book of outdated religious material. Rather, it is faulty precisely because it is a relatively new idea and cannot be found in the Bible. So one need not assume the entire Bible is metaphor. Some of it is, for metaphor is a common means of speaking. But whatever the original writers meant by what they wrote is what it still means. There is no way to escape that the Bible intends us to believe that the entire universe was created in 6 days, that there really was a world-wide flood that killed all air-breathers but those on a wooden boat, that Moses parted the Sea, that Jericho’s walls fell at the sound of trumpets and that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God Who came as a substitute for God chosen people. If those things are not literally and historically true then the book is nothing more than a curiosity and each of us is left to figure out God for ourselves.

      Don;t fall for the “metaphor” claim. Either believe or go on to something else.

      • Melissa J
        October 6, 2014

        Yikes! I seriously hope that you’re last paragraph isn’t true. To tie the validity of Jesus to the historical accuracy of the flood, or 6 literal days of creation is to limit the power of God to the words spoken by God’s people. The Bible is too complex to be taken literally all the time or to be taken metaphorically all the time. It has to be read in the context of the writer, which all were human and had agendas, although inspired by God, none-the-less human. When we tie ourselves so literally to the details of each story and their historical accuracy, we risk the very large possibility that we are missing the point. Whether God created the world in 6 literal days or through evolution does not matter as much as deriving that God is creator and creates from love and pure creativity. When we wage war using the details of the Bible as our weapons, we lose the Good News in the battle. The love of God would suggest that God would communicate to us in whatever means we would understand, not unlike using story to teach a child a lesson, not unlike Jesus using parables to teach his disciples a lesson. To argue the historical validity of those stories is to rob them of the love used to craft them in a way our ears could hear.

      • JM
        October 6, 2014

        You read an awful lot into Nora’s statement. She never said the Bible was just another primitive text or irrelevant; she simply said she had questions that challenged her husband challenged her to read the Bible in a different way than the literalist way she had been taught (a very helpful excercise used in many academic fields which can shake us loose of our culturally conditioned way of viewing things, even if we ultimately reject the premise).

        P.S. I think correspondence between the Bible and other mythical texts is incredibly helpful in understanding the Bible. They help us understand how people living in that time understood and expressed the world and show us the universal longings of the human heart which prove the Bible’s claims valid. One can engage in the exercise Nora describes and believe the Bible communicates truth at the same time.

        • Numan Today
          October 9, 2014

          More watered down relativism…she read exactly what was written, she doesn’t need you to “recycle” it for her understanding. This is the kind of humanistic reasoning that is leading the Western civilization into the obvious pit of decay as we see it has done in its atheistic centered European origin….without the authority of the Scriptures you leave the doctrines of the faith up to fallen man’s relativistic reasoning and, “…tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,” (Eph. 4:14) You don’t quote you verse as support for your claims…so it’s just your relative opinion.

      • Guest
        October 9, 2014

        This is the kind of humanistic reasoning that is leading the Western civilization into the obvious pit of decay as we see it has done in its atheistic centered European origin….without the authority of the Scriptures you leave the doctrines of the faith up to fallen man’s relativistic reasoning and, “…tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,” (Eph. 4:14) You don’t quote you verse as support for your claims…so it’s just your relative opinion.

      • Numan Today
        October 9, 2014

        This is the kind of humanistic reasoning that is leading the Western civilization into the obvious pit of decay as we see it has done in its atheistic centered European origin….without the authority of the Scriptures you leave the doctrines of the faith up to fallen man’s relativistic reasoning and, “…tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,” (Eph. 4:14) You don’t quote one verse as support for your claims…so it’s just your relative opinion.

  • joe bloe
    October 3, 2014

    Why is it, the least read, and biblically illiterate “christian” writers seem to find the most space on the internets to spread their hooplah.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 4, 2014

      Because Loud Crazies have a way of becoming the public face of a movement. I saw this in Furry Fandom.
      Loud Crazies can out-scream everyone else.
      Loud Crazies have no jobs or lives to take time away from their obsession.
      And Loud Crazies go for media attention and exposure.

      • joe bloe
        October 4, 2014

        Sounds bout right.

  • K. Elizabeth Danahy
    October 3, 2014

    I grew up in fear that the rapture was imminent and I’d never be able to look forward to anything in life. When it’s invention 200ish years ago, I was kinda shocked. Which eventually led to doubts and questions and research, and finally the conclusion: the rapture isn’t real.
    Now I can look forward to life. 😀

    • Don Lowery
      October 4, 2014

      I was the same way when I was a teenager 35 years ago while going to a fundamentalist church. Looking back on the experiences now…it was a way for these “Churches” to keep their followers in line and instill the same fear that if you don’t accept what they have to say…your soul is going to hell. It’s meant as a control mechanism. Means that no matter how false it is shown to be…the control is more important for those who refuse to accept anything else.

      • K. Elizabeth Danahy
        October 4, 2014

        Yeah. I think the people who taught me that were genuine in their beliefs and desires for God, but it definitely has the effect of “watch your sin, don’t let Jesus come back and find you in bed with someone.”

        • Don Lowery
          October 4, 2014

          They were indeed sincere in their beliefs…but sincerity in leading people down the wrong path is still going to mean a lot of people are still heading to hell thinking they are correct and right.

          As I figured out after extensive reading…if Jesus wouldn’t rapture out the church before Constantine when there was actual real danger rather than someone not telling you Merry Xmas during the holiday season…then crying out that you’re being “persecuted”…why would Jesus bother with fundamentalists with this “circle the wagon” tendency and a martyr complex with nothing to compare to these Christians in the first to third centuries?

          I discovered something else…those who claim to read the Bible literally don’t when it comes to Revelation. They’re more than willing to say you can’t take the dragon or whatever symbolism John was using literally…but heaven forbid if you do that with the rest of the Bible. I actually feel sorry that people like this are unwilling and unable to do their own thinking…then they wouldn’t be fundamentalists.

          • Joseph Terrell
            October 4, 2014

            I realize that words change in their meaning. However, “fundamentalist” once had a specific a useful meaning, and every true believe was a fundamentalist. Fundamentalism was originally a response tot eh liberalisma nd modernism of the early 1900’s. It was first voiced among Presbyterians who were dismayed at the drift of the church way from the foundation (fundamental) truths of the Bible. The original fundamentalists were not dispensationalists. There were 5 or 6 fundamentals, depending on whether a person divided the virgin birth and the deity of CHrist into two doctrines rather than one. As I recall, these were the original “Fundamentals” (copied from Wikipedia)

            The inerrancy of the Bible
            The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ’s miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
            The Virgin Birth of Christ (and thus His true Deity)

            The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
            The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

            People who believe such things are not necessarily unthinking. These points were developed by men who did a lot of thinking about what the Bible said.

          • Don Lowery
            October 4, 2014

            That may have been where fundamentalists came from. Too many have now decided to become a tool of Satan in the US and have their goals of money/power and the best of whatever the world can give them. The bad thing is that when they decided to become exactly what the enemy wanted for them and the exact opposite of what they claim to be. They have caused too many people to go running away from them and toward hell. This is only going to increase by several percentage points every decade until the ones who are left will be too old and die out. I and others pray this earthy lie will be only mentioned in the history books the same as gnosticism. Too bad that I will not be alive to see this happen.

          • Guest
            October 9, 2014

            But you don’t even propose your opinion of the “correct” hypothesis…you can only criticize the dispensational model which has very strong evidence in the various stages of progressive revelation through Biblical history as it culminates toward the final and ultimate confrontation of rebellious fallen mankind under Satan’s slavery and the final Judgment of a Righteous God…and you say “you don’t want that on your head or conscience”. You should take a second look at Isaiah 5:20 & 21. “Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

          • Numan Today
            October 9, 2014

            But you don’t even propose your opinion of the “correct” hypothesis…you can only criticize the dispensational model which has very strong evidence in the various stages of progressive revelation through Biblical history as it culminates toward the final and ultimate confrontation of rebellious fallen mankind under Satan’s slavery and the final Judgment of a Righteous God…and you say “you don’t want that on your head or conscience”. You should take a second look at Isaiah 5:20 & 21. “Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!” Oh, does that cause you anxiety…then you’re trusting in your flesh to save you and not learning to trust the Lord.,,,that’s the purpose for His wanting us to be in perpetual anticipation through the Church Age.

          • Numan Today
            October 9, 2014

            You absolutely in actuality do not know what you are talking about. You A-mills want to “spiritualize” those things that are obviously literal and make literal those things which the are clearly type (pictures or representation of a larger reality to come). You say things like about Zechariah 14:4, ” And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west”, “Oh, that’s what happens when Jesus touches our “stoney” hearts…that’s not His literal return to rule and reign on the earth from Jerusalem”. Unlike you, I do not just claim to feel sorry for people who just disparage without offering a viable working model of eschatology and only lead people astray human arguments as I have seen you A-mills do.

        • Paul W.
          October 4, 2014

          Dear K. Elizabeth Danahy,
          I am listing comments to another blogger above from your comments. I quoted your statement to make a point:

          “I grew up in fear that the rapture was imminent and I’d never be able to look forward to anything in life. . . Which eventually led to doubts and questions and research, and finally the conclusion: the rapture isn’t real.
          Now I can look forward to life.”

          I do not agree with your conclusion that the rapture is unreal, but I do agree that a signless any moment rapture for vigilant believers is unbiblical, and I do agree that misunderstandings about the rapture can lead to agonizing and tormenting fear and anguish, which is not what the Lord desires.

          Some churches and denominations and religious organizations erroneously teach the rapture is sudden and unexpected and signless for vigilant believers, which is in direct contradiction to 1 Thess. 5:2 and Rev. 3:3 and Heb. 10:25. The concept of a “thief” and of “theft” is involved in the rapture, that is certain, but the question is, “Who is the one who will experience a theft when the rapture occurs?” It is the unbeliever and the apostate for whom the rapture will be sudden and unexpected, because they are not watching the biblical signs for the rapture. the unbeliever’s believing friends and believing family members will be “stolen” from them at the rapture.

          • JM
            October 6, 2014

            I appreciate your attempt to ameliorate the fear and anxiety belief in the rapture might produce in people, but I don’t see how your explanation accomplishes the goal. It still reads as if we must be vigilant in the previous poster describes; likewise, we must have the ability to interpret “signs”, which is producing an old anxiety in me even as I write this. I do not feel certain at all that I am able to interpret these so-called “signs” correctly, which only leads to fear and anxiety and complete lack of assurance.

            If you have a clearer explanation of how True Believers are supposed to have the ability to recognize these signs, I’m willing to listen.

          • Paul W.
            October 8, 2014

            Dear JM,

            You stated, “…likewise, we must have the ability to interpret ‘signs’, which is producing an old anxiety in me even as I write this. I do not feel certain at all that I am able to interpret these so-called “signs” correctly, which only leads to fear and anxiety and complete lack of assurance.

            If you have a clearer explanation of how True Believers are supposed to have the ability to recognize these signs, I’m willing to listen.”

            My shorthand summary interpretation of 2 Thess. 2 indicates the Antichrist will appear and the Apostasy will occur before the rapture (“our gathering together unto Him”). Context indicates the Antichrist will be identifiable by his presentation of himself as “god” in Israel’s rebuilt temple. Apostasy has been happening through the centuries, but will accelerate most probably. The presentation of the Antichrist in Israel’s future rebuilt Temple is known as the Abomination of Desolation (Matt. 24:15). Since Israel’s Temple is not rebuilt yet, that event will not occur for some time, but that Abomination precedes the rapture.

            There are many contradictory interpretations on this passage in 2 Thess. 2, but it helps to remember that Paul the Apostle is describing the very same event described in Matt. 24:15. If you keep 2 Thess. 2 and Matt. 24:15 in their contexts, you can clearly observe when Israel’s Temple is rebuilt that the Abomination will take place in a short time.

            Of course, individually, we must always be ready to meet the Lord because most of us do not know when we will be exiting this life nor how.

          • Numan Today
            October 9, 2014

            Dear Paul…you first have to have the awarness to watch for the signs before you can recognize them. If you think the Church has replaced Israel and we’re going to create “heaven on earth” with scientism, you are sounding more like a Nazi than a Christian. That’s what astonishs me the most, the A-mill’s are all distracting away from their lack of teaching on anything future by filling the air with criticism of a hypothysis that has very strong evidence of being an acurate model. You don’t seem to have a model for the future…not at least one that has any evidence.

          • Paul W.
            October 10, 2014

            Dear Numan Today, you said,

            “If you think the Church has replaced Israel and we’re going to create
            “heaven on earth” with scientism, you are sounding more like a Nazi than
            a Christian.”

            Your statement shows a gross ignorance of the Greek language and the mass produced Bible used in the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

            Jesus Himself referred to Israel as the “church”, according to Matthew.
            In fact, a version of the Bible Jesus used, as probably did all the
            disciples, refers to Israel’s religious gatherings with the Greek word “ecclesia” (Greek for “church”) at least 60 times. The Greek Septuagent version of the OT BIble provides us with conclusive data that Israel is the “church” according to the common Greek language of Jesus’ day. Some of the Apostles and NT writers partially borrowed from the Greek Septuagent in quoting verses from the Tenakh, the Jewish OT Bible. In case you have forgotten, Gentiles are grafted into Israel, according to Romans 11. Gentiles are grafted into the “church” which is Israel’s religious gatherings in the OT. The church begins in a New Covenant form in the New Testament.

            As far as “scientism” goes, I am not an amillenialist. I believe in a literal thousand year reign of Jesus in the future on earth.

            You said, “Dear Paul…you first have to have the awarness to watch for the signs before you can recognize them.”

            I refer you to my previous comments on this issue, “Some churches and denominations and religious organizations erroneously
            teach the rapture is sudden and unexpected and signless for vigilant
            believers, which is in direct contradiction to 1 Thess. 5:2 and Rev. 3:3
            and Heb. 10:25.” Have you taken the time to read any of these verses? You have to explain their meaning all away before you can say they do not refer to signs for the rapture! Hebrews 10:25 is particularly hard to explain away when you examine the Greek.

            I recently heard Dr. David Jeremiah, someone who believes in a rapture before the “signs” of Daniel’s 70th week state that everyone agrees that Daniel’s 70th week has signs. The point he was making is that he believes, evidently like you, that the rapture will take place before the signs of Daniel’s 70th week begins. If you would read what I wrote about 2 Thess. 2, and read that chapter for yourself, the Apostle indicates the Abomination of Desolation precedes the rapture (the Abomination occurs before “…our gathering together unto Him”)! That means the rapture is during Daniel’s seven year seventieth week. That means the raptured occurs during the seven years of signs, not before the seven years of signs! Jesus gave plenty of explicit signs for Daniel’s 70th week. Read Matt. 24.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Man, you sound so smart when you insult people that way! (smile)…”gross ignorance of the Greek language”??…that HURTS! The word “ecclesia” does NOT mean “church”…it means “called out assembly” and has become associated with our time period in the interim. “Church” is the Greek word kyriakon (adj.) “of the Lord” was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300 A.D. Something the Nation of Israel was never called was the Bride of Christ and Jesus is never called our King as He is with them. The misinterpretation you are making in 2 Thess. 2:3 is that the word for “a falling away” is not ‘harpazo’, it’s “apostasia” or apostasy, i.e., turning from the true Gospel to false teaching…humanism, prosperity gospel, amillennialism, etc. Paul was addressing the concerns of the Thessalonians (who thought they had missed it) about his first letter in regard to the “catching away” (harpazo, i.e., the rapture) in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 when He comes FOR (not WITH as in Rev. 19) the Church Age Bride of Christ will “meet Him in the air”. That is a completely different scenario than that of His 2nd Advent to Earth when He returns (always related to Israel as a King and His Earthly ruling from Jerusalem) in Zechariah 14:4, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large alley;
            Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south….And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—”The LORD is one,” And His name one….The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited…And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.” The type or picture pattern we see in Gen. 24 is that of when Abraham’s servant, probably Eliezer (Genesis 15:2) (type of the Holy Spirit) brings Rebecca (type of the Bride of Christ) from her home in a far country where he had given her gifts back to meet Isaac (type of Jesus Christ) in the field and he took her back to his mother’s tent. In all this, we see the coming together of Isaac and Rebekah as a remarkable picture of the coming together of Jesus and the church.
            – A father desires a bride for his son
            – A son was just accounted as “dead” and “raised from the dead” A nameless servant is sent forth to get a bride for the son
            – The servant’s name is actually Eliezer, meaning “God of help” or “helper”
            – The lovely bride is divinely met, chosen, and called, and then lavished with gifts
            – She is entrusted to the care of the servant until she meets her bridegroom
            Both Rebekah and the church:
            – Chosen for marriage before they knew it (Ephesians 1:3-4).
            – Necessary for the accomplishment of God’s eternal purpose (Ephesians 3:10-11).
            – Destined to share in the glory of the son (John 17:22-23).
            – Learn of the son through his representative.
            – Must leave all with joy to be with the son.
            – Are loved and cared for by the son.
            Both Isaac and Jesus:
            – Were promised before their coming.
            – Finally appeared at the appointed time.
            – Were conceived and born miraculously.
            – Given a special name before birth.
            – Offered up in sacrifice by the father.
            – Brought back from the dead.
            – Head of a great company to bless all people.
            – Prepared a place for their bride.
            – Had a ministry of prayer while the bride comes.

          • Paul W.
            October 14, 2014

            Dear Numan Today, you said,

            “Man, you sound so smart when you insult people that way! (smile)…’gross ignorance of the Greek language’??…that HURTS! The word ‘ecclesia’ does NOT mean ‘church”…it means “called out assembly” and has become associated with our time period in the interim. ‘Church’ is the Greek word kyriakon (adj.) ‘of the Lord’ was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300 A.D.”

            I wanted to get your attention when I said “gross ignorance of the Greek language,” partially because your inference I could be sounding like a “Nazi” I believed was pretty unfair if you had read all of my comments on this blog.

            Still, your statement above about the Greek word for the “Church” does seem to indicate a partial misunderstanding of the Greek language. You are only partially correct when you infer that “ecclesia” means EXCLUSIVELY the “called out assembly.” “Called out assembly” is a possible and acceptable alternate translation for the the English word “Church.”

            The root word “ecclesia” is translated into English as “Church” 76 times in the New Testament according to the link below. Other translations are possible for the Greek word “ecclesia” (like the English word “assembly”).

            Strong’s Concordance is used for the following by accessing its Greek lexicon:

            1577. ekklesia ek-klay-see’-ah from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):–assembly, church.

            In the Septuagint, the word “ecclesia” is often translated into English as “assembly,” exactly the word you used, but the root Greek word is the New Testament root Greek word “ecclesia” (Strong’s 1577) which is also translated as “Church” 76 times in the KJV according to the accompanying link below. The 60 Septuagint references to Israel’s religious gatherings could just as correctly be translated “Church.” Some churches refer to themselves as “assemblies” which is an acceptable alternate English translation, but in English “ecclesia” can also be, and is translated, “Church” 76 times in the KJV according to the following link.

            The following link provides Strong’s Concordance results for 1577 [Strong’s number for “church” (ecclesia)].

            http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=Church&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1

            In Matthew 16:18 Jesus states He will build His “Church” (“ecclesia” is the root Greek word there).

            You said, “The misinterpretation you are making in 2 Thess. 2:3 is that the word for ‘a falling away’ is not ‘harpazo’, it’s ‘apostasia’ or apostasy, i.e., turning from the true Gospel to false teaching…”

            You are misunderstanding my comments. I never said Apostasy was the rapture, which is the claim some make who try to twist 2 Thess. 2 to get a rapture before the identification of the Antichrist into 2 Thess. 2. I am glad you are not repeating that false interpretation. You may be closer to admitting that Paul is explcitly stating the identification of the Antichrist in 2 Thess. 2 precedes the rapture (“…our gathering together unto Him”) (2 Thess. 2:1).

            You said, “…in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 …He comes FOR (not WITH as in Rev. 19).”

            In Matt. 24:30-31 Jesus also comes FOR His people which is different than Rev. 19 when Jesus comes AGAINST Antichrist’s armies.

          • Numan Today
            October 14, 2014

            Let me clarify my meaning in stating:
            “If you think the Church has replaced Israel and we’re going to create “heaven on earth” with scientism, you are sounding more like a Nazi than a Christian.”

            In MY OPINION (I want to be sure I use that because all the dogmatic statements as “you are incorrect; you misinterpret, etc.” sounds very carnally arrogant and unteachable by the Holy Spirit) all the utopianists belief systems have been in essence attempting to create a man-made “heaven on earth”, whether it be the Communist, Nazi’s, Fascists, Socialists, Western Secular Humanists, etc. History has shown that these attempts ultimately leads to a human with the biggest ego taking the reins to play “god” over those man-made utopian attempts because it concentrates toward the top, since collectivism seems to be their favorite form of government. Replacement Theology seems to fall into that pattern when they believe it is the Church’s duty to make the whole world “Christian” and then we will have the perfect world peace, etc. that we believe describes the literal reign of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. In my opinion, that is like attempting to stack marbles since mankind is fallen and, with the Knowledge of Good and Evil, humans will eventually corrupt even those thing intended for good, and modern “scientism”, that is man’s worship of his own technological development, has given him some artificial ability to have a certain amount of counterfeit omniscience, omnipower, etc. This of course give apparent support for a coming world dictator predicted as the Ultimate Anti-Christ. The Catholic Church is an earlier Replacement Theology’s attempt at a “Christian World Government”. All the “Christian Socialist” movements, i.e. Christian utopianists, were all eventually taken over by atheists who believe they are doing the human race a favor by taking evolution by the throat and controlling it for the betterment of mankind, hence, Nazism’s eugenics and Communism’s utilitarian coldness at disposing of ‘mentally ill’ individualists resisting collectivism.
            I feel that most of the conversations have focused on the symptoms rather than the causes of transformation taking place in America and the world today. As a person interested in history, I have formed the opinion that we are not only having war waged against us for world domination by Islam, but since the late 1800’s, the incremental Fabian Socialists also; so named for the Roman General, Fabius Maximus, who utilized guerilla warfare tactics. Playwright George Bernard Shaw, a Fabianist leader, was quite frank about his plans-“I am a communist. I’m just not a member of the Communist Party.” The Fabian Society began in 1884 as a British socialist movement whose purpose is to advance the principles of Collectivism via gradualism and reforms rather than the militant revolutionary method taken by Vladimir Lenin’s Communism. The Fabian Society is best known for its initial ground-breaking work in England, beginning in the late nineteenth century and continuing up to World War I and beyond. England soon declined from its position as a major world power afterwards. The writings of the American Fabian Socialist Edward Bellamy and his cousin Francis Bellamy in the late 1890’s were the source of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s government controlled Social Security retirement plan in the 1930’s according to Arthur Morgan, a member of FDR’s administration.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bellamy

            The clash of modern world viewpoints formally came to the world’s stage when the search for another form of governing from the royal monarchical system gave rise to the American experiment in the late 1700’s. With the influence of the independent-minded Christian refugees from European persecution, set in the independent frontiersmen spirit of the North American wilderness, America became “a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere”.

            In the same manner in which the America Revolution initiated a new governmental experiment, Europeans were moved by the same spirit of change to attempt their own experiment, beginning with the French Revolution. Only in the French/European experiment, the revolutionaries’ were strongly influenced by the atheistic humanist “Enlightenment” movement. They not only sought to dispose of the monarchy, but also the belief in a Supreme Creator. With this belief in self-authority, they mistakenly believe collective Utopian socialism is the higher “evolved” form of government. What they failed to understand (because of the spiritual blindness resulting from the fallen nature of man) is that without a spiritual conscience, the biggest egomaniac in the group begins to play “god” and attempts to create his own “heaven on earth” to reign over. The French Revolutionaries then set about to create their own “religion” called the “Cult of Reason”, turning most of the great cathedrals of France into “Temples of Reason”, which is in essence the religion of the modern atheistic movement. The chaos of the French Revolution gave Napoleon the opportunity to become a dictator who spread his conquest across Europe. Since that time, America has gone to war (hot and cold) to resist the multiple dictators in their socialist attempts to absorb the world into their idea of “heaven” (utopia) which that philosophical movement has spawned.

            While we were on guard militarily, the cancer of the European experiment began to incrementally infiltrate our education system beginning in the late 1800’s through the New England Ivy League Universities (sadly, many of which were originally Christian seminaries that became poisoned wells for the Liberal Church’s worldview). From this early Northeastern beachhead began the indoctrination of our pastors, education leaders, politicians, journalists and entertainers, etc., and the assault of the unsustainable European Socialist experiment began to undermine the American experiment. In the early 1900’s liberal President Woodrow Wilson began centralizing policies which included the Federal Reserve and the League of Nations. By the 1930’s FDR began implementing many European styled socialist programs and by the 1960’s the embers erupted into the flames of the Hippie Counter Culture Revolution in which our society has socially spiraled down as the infiltrators deceptively established themselves in every point of influential. This worldview is only advanced by the cloak of deception and fraud motivated by a type of quasi-religious belief system in the atheistic control of mankind’s evolution. With that in mind, it only makes sense that they are not willing to peacefully co-exist with any other belief systems, for as example the organization, “Freedom From Religion” filing lawsuits to stop the National Day of Prayer, etc. to destroy any competing belief system. They will not tolerate any other “god” beside themselves.

            It’s interesting that in Jesus’ day there were also two prominent groups on opposite ends of the political spectrum that united to attack Him. The group known as the Sadducees were equivalent to the modern liberal atheists, in that they were Jews that were Hellenistic in their beliefs; there is no after-life, pleasure is the most important pursuit in life, etc. This was the culture that Alexander the Great had spread in his conquest of the known world almost four centuries before Jesus Christ and is the basis of modern atheist’s philosophy. The Pharisee’s were a staunchly religious Jewish group that followed their rules for the purpose of their own righteousness by following laws that grew more and more strict much like the modern Islamic religion. Jesus called them “white washed tombstones, with dead men’s bones inside.” In the same manner, modern Christians seem to be the common nemesis of the modern liberal collectivists and the fanatical Muslims. I find it ironic that President Obama’s mother was a utopianist and his father from a Muslin background (even though he appears to have been more atheistic communist in truth). This is the coming worldviews in conflict originating from the spiritual war.

          • Paul W.
            December 11, 2014

            Dear Numan Today and Zach Hunt,

            in referring back to this blog about the rapture movie with Nicholas Cage, I have observed Zach Hunt has rearranged the blog which put your explanation (for something you identify with Naziism), Numan Today, out of the contextual sequence in which the dialogue originally took place. I do not want to leave people with your misleading impression, Numan Today, which suggests I might personally believe that the Lord is finished with Israel.

            Since Zach Hunt still permits comments on this blog, I decided to take the opportunity to use Zach’s generous and hospitable platform to clarify whatever misunderstanding people might derive from your comments, Numan Today, about what I might personally believe. After all, Numan Today, you are not my spokesman.

            No, I do not believe the Lord is finished with Israel for several reasons. Among those reasons is Jeremiah 31: 35-36.

            35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
            36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

            As long as the sun and moon and stars exist, the Lord’s statement through Jeremiah indicates that Israel will exist, at the very least, just as long.

            A second reason I believe the Lord is not through with Israel is the statement of Jesus in Luke 21:24 which indicates the time of Gentile domination over Israel is soon coming to an end. (Luke 21:24).

            “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)

            Zechariah 14:1-4, according to my understanding, indicates that the Lord will gather the Gentile nations against Jerusalem just before Jesus physically lands on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14). The Lord will fight for Israel. I interpret these as events close to Revelation 19, which I believe is the conclusion to the seven years of Daniel’s future 70th week (Daniel 9) mentioned in the book of Revelation. After the future 70th week of 7 year Gentile domination over Israel predicted by Daniel is ended, I believe the 1,000 year physical reign of Jesus the Messiah over the earth begins in Israel in Jerusalem. The “times of the Gentiles” (Luke 21:24) is followed by Israel’s 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom promised in Rev. 20:1-5, as well as hinted at in several prophets in the Jewish Tenakh, the Bible’s OT.

            There are numerous other reasons I could add from the Scriptures as to why I am convinced Israel has a great future planned for it by the Lord, but I will presently allow these two reasons to represent my personal views about Israel’s future purposes in the Lord’s plan.

          • Numan Today
            December 11, 2014

            Again, PaulW., you continue to misunderstand my meaning of how the European Utopian philosophical belief system has a family tree that branches into communism (common-ism), Nazism (short for National Socialists Party), Fascism, Progressivism, etc. To many, the alternative to the Biblical Futurists (those who believe in a Pre-Trib rapture/literal Millennial Kingdom of Jesus in Israel) is the Replacement/Dominion of Christianity with a global “Christian Utopia”. My warning is simply that; considering the human sin-nature, even a “Christian Utopia” will eventually fall under the control of the fallen sin-nature of humans sooner or later…it would be like stacking marbles for it not to (look at the earlier attempt by the Catholic Church). That belief system is NOT a viable alternative to the one that believes the Lord Jesus Christ will return after a period that God has allowed the evidential testing (for the future White Throne Judgment Courtroom) of fallen humans to attempt their own alternative “Tower of Babel” global dystopia as proof that the fallen nature of mankind is incapable of replacing Him and achieve true peace. That is closer to the Scriptural predictions rather than mankind bringing any form of government that could achieve a Millennial Kingdom effect. Please stop just focusing on the term ‘Nazism’ and realize it’s the conditions that allowed that form of dystopia to develop that I’m concerned with…not just the fact that they were murderous and evil (and was used by Satan in his/their attempt to destroy the Jews).

            PaulW., I have never claimed to be your spokesman either, by the way. I finally phased-out our correspondence because I have to work and have a very busy life. Please don’t continue including me in the future discussions.

          • Numan Today
            October 15, 2014

            I failed to type the rest of the passage 1 Thess. 5 :5 & 6,
            “You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
            This was the “watch” I had in mind, which more exactly means looking for the development of the world decay toward the anti-Christ system, which that would also imply “being ready”, but only as a secondary result, not the main purpose. “There is a way that seems right to a man,
            But its end is the way of death.” (Prov. 16:25) To me, that is the modern atheistic apostasy that the liberal humanist church is merging with.

            I really wish you would stop using statements like “false interpretation”, etc. That stirs the sin nature in me to retaliate in arrogant, condescending replies. I don’t want to be like the Pharisees in John 9:34 who said to the healed blind man, “They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.” I want to be teachable and not become so dogmatic in things which I ultimately don’t have control over and which are not the litmus test for salvation that the Holy Spirit can’t reveal His truth over my possible misunderstanding. I hope you would want to have the same teachable heart. I have erased the part of my response to you that I felt was a fleshly retort on the earlier reply…I don’t want it to stumble any readers.
            While you’re looking at Blueletterbible, please read Larkin’s Dispensation Truths book in the Study Tools section http://www.blbclassic.org/study/larkin/dt/ …you will at least have an unbiased look at the exposition method instead of the debate-tactic training which most people seem to be receiving and you will know more about Dispensationalism than the majority of Dispensationalists.
            As I had written earlier, the English word “Church” came from Latin “kyriakon” “of the Lord” was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300 A.D. (and I know how ekklesia ek-klay-see’-ah sounded, but thanks for the breakdown anyway [smile]). The Greek word ecclesia was interpreted into the Latin Vulgate with the Latin word Kyriakon everywhere ecclesia appeared. I’m splitting hairs because I have also said the word church means ecclesia…but not every “called out assembly” is the same “called out assembly” regardless. The Children of Israel are a “called out assembly” and were never a part of the Bride of Christ “called out assembly”. Jesus is never called our King as He is with the Israelis. We are obviously talking about two different assemblies that were called out from the rest of humanity…only Gentiles existed when Abraham was called out, but the Bride of Christ is called out from the Gentiles AND the natural descendants of Abraham…and that is where you are trying to mix the statements to the Children of Israel with the statements given to the Bride of Christ. Paul was still talking to the Christian Thessalonians….but the seeing the apostasy developing does not mean the Church is going to see the Anti-Christ revealed in that system, because he won’t be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed…and if the Holy Spirit lives in you, then you’re going with him…to be given to our Bridegroom.
            (2 Thess.2:6-9) And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
            I was not sure with way you were trying to take 2 Thess. 2 but it didn’t matter because I knew you didn’t understand that I was inferring the modern day atheistic Utopian “religion” (they have a creation account – evolution, they have a “heaven on earth” THEY are attempting to create, and they historically have always had the biggest egomaniac eventually playing “god” over it) as one of the signs coinciding with the Children of Israel returning to take the “mantel” of representationship back from the Church. Just think of how “recent” events have played out. The land of Palestine (Israel) has been off-and-on in the control of Islam for almost 1300 years, and completely for over the last 500 years (Columbus was searching for a way around the Ottoman Caliphate to the Orient). Yet in 1921 the British broke the back of that Caliphate and free the land…even proposed a homeland for the Jews with the 1917 Balfour Declaration, but didn’t follow through because of Arab pressure. So the land was made ready in 1921, but the majority of the Jews considered themselves European and wouldn’t even consider returning. Then with WWII, Hitler changed all that…he specifically sought to destroy the Children of Israel before they might possible return…Europe turned on the Jews and they (the Jews) realized they were not as assimilated as they had thought, and Europeans were not as civilized with all the humanist education they acquired as the left keeps saying education is the answer to society’s ills. So the First World War prepared the land for the return of Israel, and the Second World War prepared the people for wanting to return to re-establishing Israel. Ironically, the same war that motivated the Jews to return was the same one that enabled the divided European nations to make a union in reconstructing the Roman Empire, something that all the dictators including Hitler had failed at achieving. And in my opinion it is not an accident that Europe is the birthplace for the atheistic assault that even spread to the French colonies of the Orient…
            Luke 13:5-9 identifies who the fig tree is: “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground? But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it and if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’?”
            Only the nation of Israel was the called out assembly in the day that Jesus said He had come for 3 years looking for fruit (spiritual production)…He was 6 months from His crucifixion.
            As Jesus was entering into Jerusalem on Lamb picking day (Exodus 12:2), four days before His death, He cursed a fig tree because it was out of season and was not bearing fruit, but there will be a “season” when Israel WILL produce spiritual fruit,
            (Zachariah 8:23) “Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you”
            So in Matthew 21:19-21
            “And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.
            I believe this is a picture of Israel’s destruction in 70 A.D. after the Church was then the new “called out assembly” while the Times of the Gentiles plays out.
            The next and final prophecy of the Fig Tree (Israel) is Matthew 24:32-34
            “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it [fn] is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”
            Please see my Dispensational chart of Matthew 24 below.

          • Paul W.
            October 25, 2014

            Dear Numan Today, thank you for sharing your dispensational breakdown chart of Matthew 24.

            While you are following traditional Darbyist styled interpretations of Matt. 24 in your chart, I differ with Darby’s views on several key points. Darby’s ideas are based on certain presuppositions and assumptions, among them are his erroneous view of the Church as distinct from Israel. Probably Darby supposed the Church began in the New Testament, because of his erroneous belief that the Church is “distinct from Israel.”

            In my interperation, Matt. 24: 4-13, have a triple application, first to the past as part of the “Beginning Messianic Age” (which has been explained elsewhere), but additionally, like birth pangs, 24:4-13 will increase and accelerate into the 70th week of Daniel. So the birth pangs began in the past and continue into the present and progress into the future. Daniel’s 70th week concludes the “Beginning Messianic Age” (Matt. 24:3, 28:19).

            Matt. 24:14 might be completed before Daniel’s 70th week begins, but I believe it is more likely to be completed during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. Based on Bible evidence, I classify verses 14-51 as belonging to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week.

            Numan Today, you have brought up several important issues, but you have continued to avoid my question. My question for you is this,

            “If you are alive when Israel’s Temple is rebuilt and when animal sacrifices are being offered again on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, will you claim you are not in Daniel’s 70th week?”

          • Paul W.
            May 17, 2015

            This is a belated postscript technical correction to a description about my beliefs concerning the time of the “rapture” or our gathering together unto Jesus (Matt. 24:31).

            As I was meditating on this blog, I realized that I had probably given a good general description of my understanding concerning the time of the rapture, but that I had also incorrectly described my view in a technical sense. Things like that can happen in the midst of intense dialogue.

            Concerning Matt. 24:14-51, I should have technically stated my position slightly differently. What I stated in the blog is the following: “Based on Bible evidence, I classify verses 14-51 as belonging to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week.”

            Technically, I should have stated this slightly differently as follows: “Based on Bible evidence, I classify verses 14-51 as potentially belonging to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week exclusively. I believe the rapture could happen in the first 3 1/2 of the seven years, but if it does not, it will occur very rapidly following the first 3 1/2 years. In other words, my understanding is the gathering of the elect (Matt. 24:31), or the rapture, based on Bible evidence, will occur in the middle part of the seven years, potentially in the first 3 1/2 years, or very rapidly after the first 3 1/2 years.”

          • Paul W.
            February 24, 2015

            This is a postscript addition to my comments on Israel originating the Church (ecclesia) of the Older Testament (an idea which is more extensively found in my comments on this blog elsewhere and based on the Greek language of the Septuagint and NT). I probably did not make plain the statement about why I believe Israel’s Church in the OT can be considered a part of the Bride of Messiah.

            In reply to Darbyite dispensational claims that Israel is “NOT” referred to as the Bride of Messiah in the Bible, perhaps I failed to make clear that the Church (“ecclesia”) began in the Older Testament, as evidenced by at least 60 uses of the Greek word “church” (ecclesia) in at least one version of the Septuagint (LXX), which furnishes abundant evidence that the ecclesia (church) began in the OT and belonged to Israel (additional evidence for that is stated elsewhere in this blog). The same word ecclesia (church) is used in the NT at least 76 times, only about 16 more occurrences in the NT than in one version of the LXX (OT). The Septuagint (LXX) was the mass produced Bible in the days of Jesus. Jesus and His disciples all probably used the LXX since it was the least expensive version of the OT Bible, and there is evidence the Newer Testament writers at times borrowed from the LXX in quoting OT verses in the NT. See the Strong’s lexicon link for uses of ecclesia (church) in the NT below.

            http://www.blueletterbible.org

            The Church (ecclesia) began in Israel in OT times, and Israel’s Church took on a New Covenant form beginning in the NT, so the NT Church should be included as part of the OT Israelite Church since they are the same Church (ecclesia). Both forms of that Church belong to Israel (Rom.11). So if the NT Church is the Bride of Messiah, so is the OT Church (Rom.11:18). See also Rev. 21: 9-14.

            Darbyite Dispensationalist claims that Israel’s OT Church is not a part of Messiah’s Bride, I believe, needs serious correction as evidenced by the following Scriptures: Rom.11, Rev. 21: 9-14.

            Darbyite Dispensationalist claims that the Church began in the NT also needs serious rethinking based on NT and LXX OT evidence.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Of course I’ve read the verses, I teach on the subject three times a week. 1 Thess. 5 is a continuation of ch. 4 since there are not chapter breaks in the original manuscripts…that’s done for our convenience. “But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” (JUST LIKE IS TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW THROUGHOUT THE HUMANIST WORLD AND ESPECIALLY TO PRESENT DAY ISRAEL) then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. BUT YOU, BRETHREN (CHRISTIANS-BRIDE OF CHRIST), are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake YOU as a thief. YOU (CHRISTIANS) are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober….For God DID NOT appoint US to WRATH (the Tribulation predicted to the nation of Israel before they would repent and become His humbled servants again), but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,” And when Paul said “watch”, he didn’t mean standing in the yard looking at the sky…he meant the “signs of the times”, i.e., the healthy spiritual pressure of perpetual anticipation.
            Heb.10:25,”Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” What is it that you think I’d try to explain away??? “the day approaching”? Luke 21 is the equivalent to Matthew 24 in describing the Great Tribulation that was coming upon the world and used in humbling Israel before He establishies His Kingdom from Jerusalem (Zech. 14) ” Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place”. I’m sorry, but I have got to stop getting caught up (not harpazo) in these discussions, my wife is getting very upset that I spend so much time after work at my office…I’m going to have to disconnect the link to keep from it.

          • Paul W.
            October 14, 2014

            Dear Numan Today, you said,

            “‘For God DID NOT appoint US to WRATH (the Tribulation predicted to the nation of Israel before they would repent and become His humbled servants again), but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,’ And when Paul said ‘watch’, he didn’t mean standing in the yard looking at the sky…he meant the ‘signs of the times’, i.e., the healthy spiritual pressure of perpetual anticipation.”

            Two brief comments I will make here. “Wrath” is being interpreted by you as the seven years of Daniel’s 70th week in that verse. That is a common and incorrect interpretation which is used to justify a rapture before Daniel’s 70th week. John 3:36 indicates that the “wrath of God abides” on those who do not obey the Son.

            Why are believers coexisting with unbelievers in the present if the “wrath of God” is abiding on unbelievers? Shouldn’t all the believers have been raptured away before the “wrath of God” began abiding on unbelievers? According to the common interpretation justifying a rapture before the seventieth week of Daniel, you might as well spiritualize the present as “tribulation,” because the wrath of God is abiding on unbelievers in the present! My interpretation is that God did not appoint us to wrath (eternal punishment), but to obtain salvation (eternal rewards) because of our acceptance of His Son. Believers can coexist also with unbelievers during part of Daniel’s 70th week when “wrath” is being directed at unbelievers, because that wrath is not being directed at those who accept the gift of the Son.

            You said,

            “And when Paul said ‘watch’, he didn’t mean standing in the yard looking at the sky…he meant the ‘signs of the times’, i.e., the healthy spiritual pressure of perpetual anticipation.”

            I can agree “watch” may be interpreted several ways. You are interpreting “watch” as “being ready.” Since you do not reference the verse you are using, I will refer to Jesus in the Olivet Discourse who used the word “watch” to mean “be on the alert.” Yes, we always do need to be ready to meet the Lord, because most of us do not know how we will leave this life or when, but in the context of Mark 13:37 and Matt. 24:33 “watch” ALSO refers to alertness for observing all of the objective visual signs Jesus mentioned in those contexts, including the sign of the Abomination of Desolation, which is exactly what the fig tree parable in Matt. 24 indicates. Mark 13:37 indicates NOBODY is exempt from watching for ALL of the signs Jesus listed in that chapter, just as the fig tree parable about the “signs” also indicates.

          • Numan Today
            October 14, 2014

            Please find my attached chart of my version of the Dispensation panorama. Please note the distinguishing characteristics of the different “called out assemblies” in their chronological order. This shows the incremental increases that God has (and will) make in revealing Himself to the point until He is actually ruling in Person (in the flesh) and even then rebellious mankind will join Satan which then culminates in the courtroom of the Great White Throne Judgment. Each dispensation proves that fallen man always fails his part of the covenant given in each testing dispensation (which is a period time period that has a particular person or people who are God’s client representative on the earth ,i.e., Adam & Eve, the Children of Israel, the Bride of Christ, etc.)

          • Joe Walters
            July 24, 2015

            Dispensationalism is another recent erroneous concept. And it is not necessary to believe it in order to understand scripture.

          • Jim Grushon
            October 14, 2014

            JM. I don’t understand the need for the search for signs. The day of the Lord’s return is a day we cannot know. Jesus Said only the Father knows, Peter Said in II Peter 3:10 that this day will come as a thief in the night. Paul wrote in IThes 5:2 that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The problem is the misinterpretation of Matthew 24 when Jesus is answering his followers. the disciples did not understand his answer, He was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem not the rapture as has been taught. To them the destruction of the temple must mean the end of time but it just signified the end of Israel as God physical people.
            JM. People who want to know when the day of the Lord is are wanting to know so they can be ready. Jesus taught to be ready everyday. James 4: Teaches that your life is a vapor and we do not have knowledge of when it will end, Hebrews 9:27 states its appoint to man once to die and after death the Judgment. The day of the Lord comes everyday for millions of people on the earth because physical life comes to an end. Their lives are seal and await judgment. Yes there will be a final day when God the Father brings this all to an end and Peter describes it pretty Well in II Peter 3:9, but we must remember that each day may be the day we meet the Lord. Peter said in the II Peter 3: passage several things you need to view; 1) vrs 8 time is unimportant to God, the world will end when He decides and it doesn’t matter if its in one day of a thousand years the time will come when the purpose for this world will be done. 2) God is long suffering wanting men to come to repentance. Maybe God is waiting just for you or me, but at some point that long suffering will be over and God will call an end to this physical world. 3) The day the Lord will come when the earth is dissolved and everything will be burned up and the heavens above the earth will pass away and the elements will melt. 4) because of this fact how should you and I live our lives? Our lives should be Holy conduct before God, and looking forward to his return where we will be in the new Jerusalem, the heavenly kingdom forever.
            I know that so many teachers are pointing us to a specific time but that time is today because if your life ends today the Day of the Lord has come for you. Your life is sealed and judgment awaits ever soul that has left this life. Paul in I Cor 15 chapter talks about the resurrection and how it will take place. The doctrine of the rapture is a false teaching just as the 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth is a fabrication. The scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is ruling now, He is not coming back to a physical world to establish a perfect kingdom, that kingdom already exist, it is his church and He gave Peter and the apostles keys to that Kingdom as he said he would in Matthew 16: When Jesus comes again it will be to take his Kingdom home to the Father. I COr 15: is a vivid picture of what Jesus will do when He comes again. The dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are living will ascend to meet Jesus in the air, and he will take us to heaven and deliver us to his Father and there we will be with the Lord forever. Beautiful picture that is based in scripture and clearly seen, but if you want to know when the only answer is When God Decides that is when.

          • Numan Today
            October 9, 2014

            Apparently we’re seeing an explosion of erroneous teaching in this present time. The Scriture clearly states that “in the twinkling of an eye” (1Cor. 15:51-54) the “catching away” (1 Thess. 4:17), i.e., the Greek word “harpazo”=Lating “rapiemur”=English “Rapture” is sudden and violent (while this use is not sexual, the same latin root word is for “rape”). You are attempting to say the “harpazo” on 1 Thess. 4:16 and 1 Cor. 15:51 which is clearly for Christ’s own is the same as the Matt. 24:38-42 where the unrighteous people will be take away as they were in the Noahic flood (not the righteous family of Noah in the Ark, which is clearly a picture of the believer’s who will go through the Tribulation “inside” the Lord and the Church take (raptured) before hand, just as Enoch was “raptured” before the flood.) The Church DID NOT TOTALLY ELLIMINATE THE NATION OF ISRAEL IN GOD’S PLAN FOREVER! (Romans 11)

          • Paul W.
            October 10, 2014

            Dear Numan Today, you said,

            “You are attempting to say the “harpazo” on 1 Thess. 4:16 and 1 Cor.
            15:51 which is clearly for Christ’s own is the same as the Matt.
            24:38-42 where the unrighteous people will be take away as they were in
            the Noahic flood (not the righteous family of Noah in the Ark, which is
            clearly a picture of the believer’s who will go through the Tribulation ‘inside’ the Lord and the Church take (raptured) before hand, just as
            Enoch was ‘raptured’ before the flood.)”

            I do say the rapture is in Matt. 24:31. As you can clearly see there, the “elect” believers are “caught up” (violently if you will) at the sounding of the trumpet when Jesus appears in the clouds. Even though the word “harpazo” is not used by Matthew in that verse, it is obvious the believers are being “caught up” or “stolen up” (violently if you will) to heaven to meet the Lord in the air. You are correct in stating that 1 Thess. 4 indicates the rapture occurs in the “twinkling of an eye”.

            As far as your interpretation of Matt. 24:38-42 is concerned, I am well aware that people who believe in a rapture before Daniel’s 70th week interpret those being “taken away” as unbelievers, although you have a slightly different interpretation on those verses. I prefer the interpretation of some earlier New Covenant Church leaders who picture Noah and his family as being “taken away” or “stolen away” in the rapture. Jesus Himself used Noah and the ark as a picture about the rapture which He described in Matt. 24:31 (and Matt. 24:38-39).

            By the way. The name “Methuselah” means “when he is dead it shall be sent”. This is a reference to the flood. The flood would come when Methuselah was dead. A sign. The Abomination (Matt. 24:15) occurs before the rapture (Matt. 24:31). A sign. See 2 Thess. 2 also. Paul used, most probably, the Olivet Discourse as a guide in explaining signs for the rapture in 2 Thess. 2. In 2 Thess. 2 Paul clearly describes the rapture as occuring after the Abomination of Desolation which is in complete harmony with Matt. 24:15.

            I myself at one time subscribed to a rapture before Daniel’s 70th week. It was 2 Thess. 2 which proved to me that interpretation was incorrect.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Dear Paul,
            That is the reason I mentioned your application (misapplication in my opinion) of Matt. 24 to the rapture is because I’m aware of the A-Mill (or do you consider yourself Post-Mill?). I believe where you are misconnecting the dots is that Jesus was not speaking to the not-yet-existent Bride of Christ…He was expounding a reply to the question by Jewish Law Age believers asking, “…what will be the sign of Your coming and the end of the Age.” (Meaning THEIR Age since they could not possibly know there would be a Church Age since they were only aware of the Age they were in…you can obviously see the Church Age is NOT the same as what those Jewish followers were experiencing at that time, right?…they were gathered into one physical land vs. we’re spread throughout the world; they had a specialized priesthood vs. all Christians are priests, etc. The Roman Catholic Church thought they were relocating the “Holy City”, etc, in spite of the contrary directive for Church Age Bride of Christ in the New Testament). To see the chronological order of Matt. 24, it stands to reason that the statement and questions of Matt.24:1-3 were in the Law Age. Jesus apparently gives a brief overview of the interim period we know of as the Church Age in Matt.24:4-8, but the queue for the beginning of the 1st half of the Tribulation is in Matt.24:9-14…”then they (unbelievers) will deliver you (He was telling this to JEWS, not the not-yet-existent Christians and since we Dispensationalist believe the mantel of being God’s representatives to the human race falls back [pictured in 2 Kings 2:13] to the restore nation of Israel and completes the 7 years left unfulfilled from Daniel 9:27, and Jesus was teaching Jewish followers at the moment) The pivot point, or Middle of the Tribulation, is very clearly Matt. 24:15, followed by the last half of the Tribulation in Matt. 24:16-51, very clearly called “Great Tribulation” in Matt. 24:21. Not a mention of the Bride of Christ present in any of these verses. The Jews are clearly once again the selected (and therefore persecuted) representatives of God to the Human Race.
            Actually ‘Methuselah’ means, “When he dies, judgment (comes)”…why do you think Methuselah was the oldest living human? It wasn’t so God could break the longevity record; it’s because God is longsuffering and it only stands to reason that the day Methuselah died was the day the rain began. But you overlook that there was a “rapture” before that happened: Enoch, which we believe fits the type of the Church before the Tribulation. That is not an accident and it’s in the chronological order of types. Claiming any human’s interpretation (early, later, procrastinator, whoever Church leaders) doesn’t make them any more valid than anyone else…they were no less flawed human than me…even IF your un-named “earlier” Church leaders did-in-fact have that (miss)interpretation of Noah. Noah’s family was NOT the ones that were destroyed physically and they were NOT the ones whose souls were removed from their fleshly body and they DID NOT leave the natural elements of the material world as those souls taken in obvious judgment. The Rapture of the Church was still a mystery (Noah was a Gentile, so even the Ages that were solely Jewish didn’t even exist yet…this is PROGRESSIVE REVELATION up to the Great White Throne Judgment, i.e., dispensational)…just as the Church at the time Matt. 24 was being taught was still a mystery…again it was to Jewish listeners He was explain THEIR future to, just as God only gave future information related to Daniel according to DANIEL’S people (we are looking over his shoulder reading information about someone else)…the Church was non-existent as it ALWAYS is whenever Israel is being God’s representatives to the world…and that works in reverse for the Bride of Christ in our ‘mystery Age’ [Rom. 11:25; 16:35; 1Cor.2:7; Eph.1:9; 3:9; 5:32; Colossians 1:27; 2:2; 4:3] also…the nation of Israel was not dispersed by “accident” during the vast majority of the Church Age, and even then it’s only as another people as the Gentiles nations had been during the Jewish Age of Abrahamic Promise and the Law Age; not as God’s representatives in light of New Testament teaching. Jesus Himself (as you put it) did not mention the “catching away” of anyone in Matt. 24, Church Age believers OR Tribulational period believers; He was alluding to the apostate condition of Noah’s Age and those who would be unaware would be caught unprepared. Paul tells us we are not as “children of the dark so that we should be caught unprepared”. It only stands to reason (if you’ll allow me to hypothesis) that if Jesus Christ’s Kingdom rule of 1000 years is about to take place, then there will only be living righteous humans to rule over, that is, until their descendants become the usual complacent humans who are willing to follow a released Satan at the end of the Millennial (1000 year) reign. Remember, we dispensationalists believe this is PROGRESSIVE REVELATION periods (increased knowledge of God, His being physically present and ruling perfectly in the last period) that reveals fallen mankind’s characteristics in every situation for the courtroom of the Great White Throne Judgment.
            Please do not use the debating ploy of stating, “I myself at one time subscribed to….” , because that proves nothing and is only air filler for insinuating superiority…it’s worthless.
            Please do not use the debating ploy of stating, “I myself at one time subscribed to….” , because that proves nothing and is air filler for insinuating superiority…it’s worthless. Since the Bride of Christ was still a mystery to Daniel, and ALL information given to Daniel was in regard to HIS people (the Jews), the catching away of the Bride is not mentioned. Just remember, “instantaneous relocating”, i.e., rapture, etc, has happened and will continue to happen all through the panorama of the Biblical account…it’s not just something that only happens to the Church one time. It happened first to Enoch, Elijah, Jesus “translated” out of hostile crowds and later into locked rooms, Philip, Paul (2Cor.12:2), John (Rev. 4:1), the two witness of Rev. 11, unbelievers at the end of the Tribulational Period (in my opinion),etc.

          • Paul W.
            October 14, 2014

            Dear Guest, you said,

            “…A-Mill (or do you consider yourself Post-Mill?).”

            I am Pre-Mill, which I supposed I had made clear in a comment elsewhere on this blog. I reiterate. I am pre-millennial.

            You said, “‘…what will be the sign of Your coming and the end of the Age.’(Meaning THEIR Age since they could not possibly know there would be a Church Age since they were only aware of the Age they were in…you can obviously see the Church Age is NOT the same as what those Jewish followers were experiencing at that time, right?”

            Guest, do you believe in transitional periods when one dispensation is followed by another? The dispensation of the “Church Age” is a misnomer, since Israel’s religious gatherings are referred to at least 60 times as the “ecclesia” (Church) in the LXX (Greek Septuagint OT Jewish Tenakh translation) the same as Strong’s Concordance #1577). By contrast, “ecclesia” is translated 76 times in the KJV New Testament as “Church,” only 16 times more frequently in its appearance than the LXX, if one goes by the English translation of “ecclesia” as “Church” in the KJV. If you want to talk about our present age, you would be more accurate if you would refer to it possibly as the “New Testament Church Age,” since, according to at least 60 references in the LXX and several references in the New Testament, Israel began the Church Age (Old Testament Church Age). The Church takes on a New Covenant form beginning in the New Testament.

            Strong’s #1577. ekklesia ek-klay-see’-ah from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (JEWISH synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):–assembly, church (my emphasis added).

            You said, “To see the chronological order of Matt. 24, it stands to reason that the statement and questions of Matt.24:1-3 were in the Law Age.”

            I would say at the very least, according to your semantic labeling of dispensations, the disciples and Messiah were in a transitional period between the ages of the OT and NT Church dispensations (or transitional period between the Law emphasis Age of the OT and the Grace emphasis Age of the NT). I cannot make the same radical distinction between dispensational ages which you are apparently attempting, because we are saved by the Messiah’s LIFE as much as by His DEATH! The righteous life of Jesus is imputed to believers, and His righteous life provides the grounds for the believer’s justification. The New Covenant promised to Israel (Jeremiah 31:31) is ultimately sealed by blood, the blood of Jesus, Israel’s Messiah, but His life was just as necessary for our salvation as His death. I would say at the very least there is a transitional period between your dispensation labels which does not neatly lend itself to your rapture scenario before Daniel’s 70th week in your construction/interpretation of Matt. 24.

            It is possible to argue the disciples had entered the “Beginning the Messianic Age” instead of semantically claiming they had entered the New Testament “Church Age.” The Bible does not name the dispensations explicitly, men do. One might be more accurate in calling the Age the disciples were living in the “Beginning Messianic Age” since Jesus the Messiah was physically with them! If we label the age the disciples were living in as the “Beginning Messianic Age,” it is logically harder to claim the disciples were in a different Age than the “end of the age” the disciples were asking about in Matt. 24:3.

            Jesus said He would be with His believers always, even unto the “end of the age” (Matt. 28:19). The disciples had asked Jesus for signs of the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3). by semantically labeling the dispensation in the gospels as the Age of the New Covenant Church, you can claim Messiah’s “end of the age” in Matt. 28 is different than His answer about the “end of the age” to His disciples in Matt. 24. It is then possible to claim there are two different ending ages in view. I believe Matt. 24:3 and Matt. 28:19 are both referring to the same “end of the age.” If one semantically labels the age the disciples lived in as the “Beginning Messianic Age,” then one can easily harmonize Matt. 24:3 and Matt. 28:19 and we can dispense with the artificial creation of two separate ending ages required by those claiming there is a rapture before Daniel’s 70th week. The creation of those two different ages under Darbyism is a result of human semantic labeling of the present age with a human label which is fallible. I would call the age the disciples lived in the “Beginning Messianic Age.” Unfortunately, my label sacrifices the required “two age endings” required by Darbyism.

            Guest, you said, “Jesus apparently gives a brief overview of the interim period we know of as the Church Age in Matt.24:4-8, but the queue for the beginning of the 1st half of the Tribulation is in Matt.24:9-14…”

            Guest, you said, “The pivot point, or Middle of the Tribulation, is very clearly Matt. 24:15, followed by the last half of the Tribulation in Matt. 24:16-51, very clearly called ‘Great Tribulation’ in Matt. 24:21.”

            While Matt. 24:15 is NEAR the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, I do not believe Matt. 24:15 is the exact middle as many claim using Dan. 9:27. I believe Matt. 24 in its entirety refers to the first 3 1/2 years, and that Matt. 24:16-51 is NOT the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, but is in the first 3 1/2 years. The “Great Tribulation,” I believe, occurs in the first 3 1/2 years, not during the last 31/2 years. In Rev. 7:14 the “great tribulation” referred to is in the first 31/2 years according to the details of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation).

            Guest, you said, “Actually ‘Methuselah’ means, ‘When he dies, judgment (comes)’…”. Your intended correction appears to indicate you have never studied any other language except English. It is possible to translate from one language to another a variety of ways, hence, many versions of the Bible. Wikipedia will give some additional and harmonious interpretations of Methuselah’s name.

            Guest, you said, “But you overlook that there was a ‘rapture’ before that happened: Enoch, which we believe fits the type of the Church before the Tribulation. That is not an accident and it’s in the chronological order of types.”

            Earlier New Covenant Church leaders interpreted Noah’s ark as symbolic of the rapture. If you put Enoch’s rapture before Messiah’s Noah’s Ark symbolic rapture (Matt. 28:31, 38-39), you are arguing for the partial rapture view (the multiple raptures view). Some do claim there is a rapture of the Christians before Daniel’s 70th week, a rapture of Christians during Daniel’s 70th week, and a rapture of Christians at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. Some have argued for as many as five raptures! New Testament evidence convinces me there is only one rapture for the whole church (1 Thess. 4). If you do not believe in multiple Christian church raptures, as partial rapturists claim, then you had better stop claiming Enoch’s rapture is before Noah’s symbolic rapture (Matt. 24:31, 389-39), because it appears you are arguing for multiple raptures by overlapping the types. Since you are arguing against a rapture in Matt. 24:30-31, you obviously do not take the partial rapture view. Nor do I.

            Guest, you said, “Jesus Himself (as you put it) did not mention the ‘catching away’ of anyone in Matt. 24, Church Age believers OR Tribulational period believers; He was alluding to the apostate condition of Noah’s Age and those who would be unaware would be caught unprepared.”

            I recommend you put Noah’s Ark in Matt. 24:38-39 into the context of Matt. 28:37 (…”the coming of the Son of Man”). I believe the rapture precedes Messiah’s return to earth, a two part coming, if you will, similar to Darbyism, but the rapture is during Daniel’s 70th week, not before Daniel’s 70th week. Jesus is definitely talking about people being caught up from earth to the clouds in Matt. 24:30-31, which can be very easily verified by a comparison of Matt. 24:30-31 with its parallel passage in Mark 13:27 (..”from the farthest end of earth, to the farthest end of heaven.”) It is possible to argue from Mark’s parallel passage that Jesus is talking about the dead and the living meeting Jesus in the clouds (the dead being referred to “by the farthest end of heaven” and the living believers by “the farthest end of earth”). Matthew lumps both together without distinction. Compare Matt. 24:30-31, with Mark 13:27 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17.

            Guest, you said, “Remember, we dispensationalists believe this is PROGRESSIVE REVELATION periods (increased knowledge of God…”

            Dispensationalism was taught in several forms before J.N. Darby got ahold of it. I am a dispensationalist, but I am not a dispensationalist who believes in a rapture before Daniel’s 70th week. The rapture occurs DURING Daniel’s 70th week, not before, as Jesus (Matt. 24:30-31, 38-39) and Paul (2 Thess. 2) make very clear.

            Guest, you said, “Please do not use the debating ploy of stating, ‘I myself at one time subscribed to….’ , because that proves nothing and is air filler for insinuating superiority…it’s worthless.”

            My statement was a testimony that I too could be deceived by Darbyism, and it is not a debating ploy [Do not be DECEIVED, that day (the day of the rapture or “our gathering unto Him”) shall not come except” the Apostasy come first, and the Man of Sin (Antichrist) be revealed (2 Thess. 2:1-3, Matt. 24:15, 30-31)].

            You have brought up several excellent points, dear “Guest.” My question for you is this, “If you are alive when Israel’s Temple is rebuilt and when animal sacrifices are being offered again on the Temple mount in Jerusalem, will you claim you are not in Daniel’s 70th week?”

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Dear Paul,
            That is the reason I mentioned your application (misapplication in my opinion) of Matt. 24 to the rapture is because I’m aware of the A-Mill (or do you consider yourself Post-Mill?). I believe where you are misconnecting the dots is that Jesus was not speaking to the not-yet-existent Bride of Christ…He was expounding a reply to the question by Jewish Law Age believers asking, “…what will be the sign of Your coming and the end of the Age.” (Meaning THEIR Age since they could not possibly know there would be a Church Age since they were only aware of the Age they were in…you can obviously see the Church Age is NOT the same as what those Jewish followers were experiencing at that time, right?…they were gathered into one physical land vs. we’re spread throughout the world; they had a specialized priesthood vs. all Christians are priests, etc. The Roman Catholic Church thought they were relocating the “Holy City”, etc, in spite of the contrary directive for Church Age Bride of Christ in the New Testament). To see the chronological order of Matt. 24, it stands to reason that the statement and questions of Matt.24:1-3 were in the Law Age. Jesus apparently gives a brief overview of the interim period we know of as the Church Age in Matt.24:4-8, but the queue for the beginning of the 1st half of the Tribulation is in Matt.24:9-14…”then they (unbelievers) will deliver you (He was telling this to JEWS, not the not-yet-existent Christians and since we Dispensationalist believe the mantel of being God’s representatives to the human race falls back [pictured in 2 Kings 2:13] to the restore nation of Israel and completes the 7 years left unfulfilled from Daniel 9:27, and Jesus was teaching Jewish followers at the moment) The pivot point, or Middle of the Tribulation, is very clearly Matt. 24:15, followed by the last half of the Tribulation in Matt. 24:16-51, very clearly called “Great Tribulation” in Matt. 24:21. Not a mention of the Bride of Christ present in any of these verses. The Jews are clearly once again the selected (and therefore persecuted) representatives of God to the Human Race.
            Actually ‘Methuselah’ means, “When he dies, judgment (comes)”…why do you think Methuselah was the oldest living human? It wasn’t so God could break the longevity record; it’s because God is longsuffering and it only stands to reason that the day Methuselah died was the day the rain began. But you overlook that there was a “rapture” before that happened: Enoch, which we believe fits the type of the Church before the Tribulation. That is not an accident and it’s in the chronological order of types. Claiming any human’s interpretation (early, later, procrastinator, whoever Church leaders) doesn’t make them any more valid than anyone else…they were no less flawed human than me…even IF your un-named “earlier” Church leaders did-in-fact have that (miss)interpretation of Noah. Noah’s family was NOT the ones that were destroyed physically and they were NOT the ones whose souls were removed from their fleshly body and they DID NOT leave the natural elements of the material world as those souls taken in obvious judgment. The Rapture of the Church was still a mystery (Noah was a Gentile, so even the Ages that were solely Jewish didn’t even exist yet…this is PROGRESSIVE REVELATION up to the Great White Throne Judgment, i.e., dispensational)…just as the Church at the time Matt. 24 was being taught was still a mystery…again it was to Jewish listeners He was explain THEIR future to, just as God only gave future information related to Daniel according to DANIEL’S people (we are looking over his shoulder reading information about someone else)…the Church was non-existent as it ALWAYS is whenever Israel is being God’s representatives to the world…and that works in reverse for the Bride of Christ in our ‘mystery Age’ [Rom. 11:25; 16:35; 1Cor.2:7; Eph.1:9; 3:9; 5:32; Colossians 1:27; 2:2; 4:3] also…the nation of Israel was not dispersed by “accident” during the vast majority of the Church Age, and even then it’s only as another people as the Gentiles nations had been during the Jewish Age of Abrahamic Promise and the Law Age; not as God’s representatives in light of New Testament teaching. Jesus Himself (as you put it) did not mention the “catching away” of anyone in Matt. 24, Church Age believers OR Tribulational period believers; He was alluding to the apostate condition of Noah’s Age and those who would be unaware would be caught unprepared. Paul tells us we are not as “children of the dark so that we should be caught unprepared”. It only stands to reason (if you’ll allow me to hypothesis) that if Jesus Christ’s Kingdom rule of 1000 years is about to take place, then there will only be living righteous humans to rule over, that is, until their descendants become the usual complacent humans who are willing to follow a released Satan at the end of the Millennial (1000 year) reign. Remember, we dispensationalists believe this is PROGRESSIVE REVELATION periods (increased knowledge of God, His being physically present and ruling perfectly in the last period) that reveals fallen mankind’s characteristics in every situation for the courtroom of the Great White Throne Judgment.
            Please do not use the debating ploy of stating, “I myself at one time subscribed to….” because that proves nothing and is only air filler for insinuating superiority…it’s worthless.
            Since the Bride of Christ was still a mystery to Daniel, and ALL information given to Daniel was in regard to HIS people (the Jews), the catching away of the Bride is not mentioned. Just remember, “instantaneous relocating”, i.e., rapture, etc, has happened and will continue to happen all through the panorama of the Biblical account…it’s not just something that only happens to the Church one time. It happened first to Enoch, Elijah, Jesus “transported” out of hostile crowds and later into locked rooms, Philip, Paul (2Cor.12:2), John (Rev. 4:1), the two witness of Rev. 11, unbelievers at the end of the Tribulational Period (in my opinion),etc.

          • 200 Years of Stupidity
            October 15, 2014

            Of course the Church didn’t eliminate God’s plan for Israel. It fulfilled it. Gnosticism is a heresy, “teacher”.

          • Numan Today
            October 16, 2014

            I agree gnosticism is a heresy, but the “teacher” addition seemed a little hostile. You sound very bitter and it sounds a little like gnashing of teeth, “200 Years of Stupidity” (are you really that old???) I KID! I KID! Lighten up, dude. Eschatology is NOT the litmus test for salvation, but being a stumbling block to believers with drool-spitting teeth-gnashing is being apt for disipline (if your a Christian, that is). Take a breath, brother, and utilize 1 John 1:9 (or focus on 1 John 1:10 if the case is more applicable). Our High Priest will clean the “dirt” off of your “feet” (Christian walk) just like He told Peter and it has the same effect for us as Church Age priests as it did for the Old Testament priests at the Laver before they could enter that place of fellowship (1 John 1:5-10) in the Holy Place, the place closest to the Holy of Holies (the presence of God).

          • Numan Today
            October 16, 2014

            I completely agree that gnosticism is a heresay, but it seems your “teacher” address to me was very drool-spitting teeth-gnashing…I could be misreading it, but I’m just saying. By the way, are you really that old? I KID! I KID! In regard to your statement, “It fulfilled it”…God is not a liar, and all the statements in regard to Zechariah have not happened in any way at this time…and please, don’t even respond if you’re going to give me that “junk” that this is not literal…
            Zechariah 14:4, 9, 11
            “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south….And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one….And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited….And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left (FROM THE DESTRUCTION CAUSED BY THE GREAT TRIBULATION)of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”
            Zechariah 8:3,4,21
            “Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
            And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.”
            If these verses are not literal, then you have to say this verse is not lietal either, “”Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.” (Zechariah 9:9)…and I certainly hope you can agree that this statement was literal.” I could list many, many more but it would just be beating a dead horse anyway, from the tone of your statement, I’m afraid. (John 9:34)
            Please do not be so bitter about what you what to truth…it will still be true even if others don’t agree with you, if it is true with God. Just use 1 John 1:9 (or 1 John 1:10 if you don’t think you need it) and take a big breath, brother.
            Eschatology is not the litmus test of salvation unless interferes with accepting the blood of Jesus Christ for the covering of your sins.
            http://www.blbclassic.org/study/larkin/dt/
            http://www.blbclassic.org/study/larkin/dt/00toc.cfm#charts
            http://www.blbclassic.org/study/larkin/dt/03.cfm#c03

        • Mary Britzman
          December 5, 2014

          You would rather be here than with Jesus? John 2:15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him Unlike you I look forward to the Rapture and not to have to be in this evil world anymore. You comment is so telling on where you heart is. Why would you fear going to be with Jesus? We have such a bright eternal future with the Lord and not with these broken down sinful bodies. When it talks about the 10 wise virgins and to have oil in your lamp I truely am in fear that a lot of people are going to be left behind and endure the tribulation. What is fun about that? The Rapture is 100 percent real and one day we will all know. But most important death is imminent.we are not promised tomorrow death can come and any time and it’s important to be ready as much as if the Rapture could happen at anytime. This is a time of great deception because Satan knows his time is short and I would really pray and ask God to guide you on what will happen. I did and he revealed the truth not only from the Bible but from two visions. God Bless

      • Numan Today
        October 9, 2014

        That is a very shallow line of reasoning….”keep their followers in line”…please!!! If you can’t see the evidence for the support of a coming the atheist’s Utopian One World Government, a cashless society, rampant apostasy and hedonism, etc, as described by the PreTribulation, PreMillennial model then you are willingly blind. The believe that the fallen human race is going to create “heaven on earth” is the indocrintation you have decided to be enslaved to if that is the case.

        • Don Lowery
          October 9, 2014

          Too bad that you’ve got too much stock in Reynolds aluminum and have never actually read your Bible…except those parts where the doom and gloom are told you by the false teachers you love too much. It’s not me who’s blind…but those like you who have never read or understood what the real God actually says about love…rather than the delusions of persons like yourself.

          I hope and pray that you actually read and understand Matthew 25:31-46 before it’s too late from believing the heresy you love too much. The rapture and your delusions will never happen…since they all ready have during the first century.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Calm down, my friend…stock in Reynolds aluminum?? That sounds like something from Occupy Wall Street. You’re jumping to too many conclusions about who you are talking. Do you completely understand the fallen nature of mankind and his (our) attempts to create utopia on earth has been like stacking marbles? Historically, all the European Utopianists movements have always sunk into the biggest egomaniac ruling his man-made heaven like a prison, and that’s a tangible fact. Show me a hypothesis with a working tangible model instead of just puffing and insulting which so far that’s primarily the A-Mills have done…where do you think the human race is going from here? Give us something to shoot at like has been done to those of us who truly believe this fallen world system is like the Titanic and our responsibility is not to repair the hole (or arrange deck chairs to look pretty), but to get as many of our fellow human being in the Life Boat of Jesus Christ. If Dispensationalism is “too new”, why is it that Calvinism is not considered “too new”? Aren’t they revealed at the time that’s appropriate, just as the centuries it took to place the correct books in our Bible?

          • Eli Odell Jackson
            October 23, 2014

            Exactly what do you think Matthews 25:31-46 says? Have you ever read your bible? Do you believe it? Which parts? All of it?
            Is salvation by grace through faith or by works?
            Does the fundamentalist do nothing to minister to sinners or does the liberal think he, supporting the government to do it in his stead is justified?
            What is your argument here?

      • Numan Today
        October 9, 2014

        That is a very shallow line of reasoning….”keep their followers in line”…please!!! If you can’t see the evidence for the support of a coming the atheist’s Utopian One World Government, a cashless society, rampant apostasy and hedonism, etc, as described by the PreTribulation, PreMillennial model then you are willingly blind. The belief that the fallen human race is going to create “heaven on earth” is the indocrintation you have decided to be enslaved to and controlled by if that is the case.

      • Eli Odell Jackson
        October 23, 2014

        Well God bless you Don, but I read a few of comments to make sure I got your measure first and you appear to be a typical, ’emerging church’ apostate/new-ager, liberal Christian, or heck, you could be entirely an infidel from your worldly rants about you glorifying doubt over faith, and constantly attacking what you view as fundamentalist, from your backslidden worldly position.

      • Eli Odell Jackson
        October 23, 2014

        But I’ll ask this one question and let you disqualify yourself.

        Is the bible the inerrant, unchanging word of God?

        And as a matter of fact one more question, why did Christ come to this present world?

    • Numan Today
      October 9, 2014

      So you think that when a doctrine (teaching) is not developed at the instant Jesus ascended means that it’s not valid? That would mean that the first 200-300 years of compiling the books of the New Testament were invalid, then the next several hundred years establishing the Divinity of Jesus Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit, then the centuries of where works and salvation fit together, etc. The appropriate time for doctrine about the rapture is when it is the APPROPIRATE TIME! The Lord Jesus even told His disciples it was too soon for them to be asking about the re-establishment of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6 & 7). Christian Doctrines have ALL been in gradual development over the whole period of the Church Age and they were not addressed until the time they were needed!! God has always given us (the human race) only the information we need, when we need it. You say, “Now I can look forward to life”…that is exactly the reason the Lord left the Church in PERPETUAL ANTICIPATION, BECAUSE WE WILL RETURN TO THE FLESHLY WORLD SYSTEM! Peter said in 2 Peter 3, “Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.” Be warned Elizabeth, don’t follow after these false teachers! They don’t even use Scripture for proof of any authority in their smear campaign, just human arguements.

      • Brendan Murphy
        October 9, 2014

        If you want scriptural proof, read the gospels about the Son of Man coming in the clouds, then compare it to Daniel 7 (especially vs 13-14). You will see it’s not about his return or rapture, but rather his ascension. He’s coming in the clouds towards God not earth, to receive glory and power. Once you realize the apocalyptic passages in the Gospels are about the Ascension of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD), you might change your tune on Rapture.

        • Numan Today
          October 13, 2014

          Looked at it long time ago, my friend, and the Bride of Christ is not in Matthew or Daniel…we were still a mystery in the future and Jesus is NEVER called our King, only to the Jews.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            Daniel 9:24-27 is God’s answering Daniel’s prayer petition for HIS (Daniel’s) people and city (Jerusalem) in verses 16-19 saying, “O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from THY CITY JERUSALEM, thy holy mountain: because for OUR (Israelites) sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, JERUSALEM and THY PEOPLE (Israelites, Mystery of the Church, the Bride of Christ hadn’t been revealed) are become a reproach to all that are about us….Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.” God sends the explanation through Gabriel that 70 shabuwa’ (units of seven in the Hebrew- most agree implies ‘years’ since it was also 490 years’ worth of unobserved 7th Year Sabbaths that the Jews were removed from the land for 70 years-Lev. 25:4; Jerm.25:11) would pass before the end would come…that would equal 490 years after the command to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. The seventy weeks are divided into three parts:
            – Seven weeks – 49 years, until the city and its walls are rebuilt
            – 69 weeks (7 plus 62), 483 years from the decree, until Messiah the Prince appears
            – A final 70th week to complete the prophecy

            Since Jesus’ arrival is obviously predicted in vs. 25 “…until the (arrival of) the Prince shall be: 7+62 shabuwa’=69 units of seven=483 years. That would mean the decrees of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. would have been the initial command that started the “stop clock”. That collaborates the rebuilding of the walls in the first 49 years (7 shabuwa’) of Nehemiah in the conflict with the hostile neighbors of Jerusalem after the command. Sir Robert Anderson calculated, using a 360-day year (which Israel used in Daniel’s day), calculates 173,880 days from the decree to the triumphal entry, fulfilling the prophecy to the day. “It is customary for the Jews to have twelve months of 360 days each and then to insert a thirteenth month occasionally when necessary to correct the calendar. Taking Anderson’s calculations as reliable, we see a remarkable fulfillment of prophecy. A Gentile king made a decree and 483 years later to the day, Jesus presented Himself as Messiah the Prince to Israel on Lamb picking day (Exodus 12:2; John 12:1,12) before His Passover fulfilment with His crucifixion. Then the “stop clock” is stopped for Israel in prophecy while the focus is directed to a mystery called the Bride of Christ, an ecclesia, another “called out assemble” which eventually was referred to as the Church. The Church was not seen by Jewish prophets when it came OR when it leaves, like a valley between the two peaks of His First Advent and His Second Advent from their perspective…only Israel’s timetable can be the roadmap of the earthly return to restore the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-8). Daniel’s people, the Jews, have a 7 year segment to complete their last portion of the prophecy in the complete restoration of the Kingdom with the coronation of their last King; the King of Kings and Lord of Lord over all the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21), “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one…. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

    • Jingle Pig
      October 10, 2014

      It seems so selfish that everyone wants to “enjoy” life. They want to
      experience getting married, having kids, growing old, cooking meals in a
      crock pot & decorating for holidays while the rest of the world
      suffers. It’s as if- God is withholding our future from us, and doing us
      an injustice if he was to return to rescue us from the horrors to come.
      There are millions who are suffering around the world, including the
      United States ready to get out of here. When it starts getting really
      bad we are going to beg him to come get us. Look at the situation with
      ISIS alone, all of the people left refugees, & seeing horrible
      violence, Christians & non murdered around the world by the
      thousands. For now, everyone is content here on earth & sees the
      rapture to an inconvenience to their life. Please remember other people
      who have seen family members murdered, raped, tortured… People living
      in horrible living conditions in poverty, praying for something to eat
      & clean water. Their blood is crying out, and God will not allow
      this earth to continue forever, he will give them vengeance. The rapture
      is a very scary thing, and as someone who grew up in the Christian
      faith it has always brought fear to me, but it does not mean I change
      the bible to counteract my fear. Now that I am older, and have read
      revelations for myself- I view the rapture as a wonderful, glorious
      thing, that God would allow me to escape the things to come. Is he
      supposed to stop time for us, and not come back? Should he not have
      warned us about his coming so that we would not grow up in fear of not
      being able to “have a life?” We are a very selfish people who need to
      wake up to the world around us. And for those of you who do not believe
      in the rapture, that is okay. Only those of us who are looking for him will go with him anyway.
      How about pray & allow the holy spirit to do his job & reveal
      the word of God to you instead of going on everyone’s opinion &
      commentary. I could give scripture reference after scripture reference
      on how the rapture is a different event than second coming & you
      could give me verses back that in your eyes say the opposite (or you can
      quote zack because you dont want to study the bible for yourself)
      ..know what OUR bible says? Only the spirit can reveal spiritual things.
      My flesh, blood, & quotes cannot reveal anything to you. Only the
      holy spirit from God can give us the true answer. I suggest everyone to
      examine their lives & genuinely pray that the Holy Spirit explains
      the book of revelations & other books to give HIS answer, not ours.
      He still speaks fyi, but if your main benefit of the rapture not
      existing is so you can now breathe & enjoy life, you couldn’t be
      further from the heart of God. Being with him in heaven IS life. If we desire anything in this life more than him, we are not worthy of him, and we are NOT his.

      • K. Elizabeth Danahy
        October 10, 2014

        Can I be honest for a second? Maybe I’m extra sensitive due to a family emergency that just occurred, but you are actually hurting me, hence why I am responding. Why do you think you know me, that I don’t know God, and that I don’t care about suffering? Why?

        1). I never said I changed the Bible to counter my fear – I looked forward* to the rapture, in fact. I was stunned that anyone could be afraid of it. It brought anxiety, yes, but excitement, too. What were my plans compared to heaven? I looked forward to it so much I stopped caring so much about the plight of people on earth (and so did many people I know. All we cared about were their souls, not so much their suffering). That’s a SERIOUS problem.

        2). I study the Bible deeply. I researched the rapture, prayed about it, and was led to conclude it is false. I believe Jesus is coming back, just not in rapture form. I’m willing for God to correct me if I am wrong, however. None of my beliefs are beyond scrutiny. So, really, you know nothing about my relationship to God.

        2). You know nothing about how often I think of suffering people. How I sometimes pray I could die in their place and cry at night because I can’t stop ISIS from killing people, how I can’t bring back Nigeria’s girls, how there are homeless people around even me I can’t freaking help. How I am crying right now because I am helpless to save my grandmother from her acute Alzheimer’s. You know nothing about my PTSD from years of abuse, my eating disorder and compulsions, my depression and anxiety so severe I’ve been unable to function at times. Do not tell me I don’t care about suffering. You have no idea how much I care.

        Ironically, you have judged me and seem to believe I am saying and doing something I am not, which I believe Jesus spoke quite strongly against.

        I know it’s not cool to say I’m hurt. But I am. Can we talk about this more?

        • Numan Today
          October 13, 2014

          Hey, calm down; please…if we’re brothers and sisters in the Lord we need to stop being so vindictive, including me. What WE think about eschatology is not the litmus test of salvation unless it interferes with the sanctifying belief in Jesus Christ death for your sins. All this talk about judging, etc., that’s taking further than it was meant. Let me take issue with your statement Elizabeth that you stopped caring about the plight of people on earth…really??? If it was revealed to you that you were on the Titanic and that it was sinking, wouldn’t you attempt to sound the alarm and get as many people in the lifeboat (Jesus in this case)? Anything else would be like attempting to repair the hole yourself (humanism and cleaning up society) or arranging deck chairs (looks nice and orderly but utterly useless on the sinking ship of fallen mankind, such as Kate Danahy’s worldview). If you think you are heartbroken over the rampant evil in this FALLEN world system, you can’t even begin to understand how an Omnipotent (all knowing) Holy God whose holiness is being violated by its (evil) presence. Imaging how only His love could hold back the arm of His Justice to preserve His Righteousness from contamination…”all our righteousness is as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6) , even those of us who think we’re looking very “moral”…or even the demonic ISIS who think God is please by their killing infidels. All of us who have human fathers are going to die as a wisp of smoke in the big picture, only what we do for Christ will last forever…and only the saved souls you have put in your heavenly “retirement” plan for rewards will last. God is holding back His wrath for the fullness of time which allows the people in the future which we’re unaware of the opportunity to be save….just like those in our past had to endure the evils of the fallen rebellious world system so we would have our chance

          • K. Elizabeth Danahy
            October 13, 2014

            Hi Numan,
            I’m not a fan of internet cruelty. Can you please point out where I was being vindictive?
            I wasn’t meaning to use “thou shalt not judge” as condemnation; it’s just what Jingle Pig did, all the while claiming to follow the Bible. How else did someone who doesn’t know me arrive at the conclusion that, because I don’t believe in the rapture, I am selfish, don’t study the Bible, and don’t care about suffering?

            Also, I fully agree eschatology isn’t a salvation issue, which is, again, why I took issue with Jingle Pig’s implication that those who don’t buy the rapture aren’t saved.

            And, if you haven’t guessed, Kate Danahy and I are identical twins (no, we can’t read each other’s minds, hehe). You have misrepresented her view, and Christian humanism in general, here.

          • K. Elizabeth Danahy
            October 13, 2014

            Also, the way Rapture theology messed with our care for people was probably most blatant in the notion that climate change doesn’t matter, since Jesus is rapturing us and destroying the world anyway (even though climate change negatively affects SO many people).
            All in all, I think sometimes the Rapture promotes a escapism that minimizes present suffering to an unhealthy extent. This certainly isn’t true for everyone who believes the Rapture (Jingle Pig seems to care, for instance), but I think Rapture theology can give a convenient excuse to be complacent on ending suffering.
            Thanks for engaging. 🙂

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            I’m sorry, but I think you jump to too many wrong conclusions and misconnecting too many dots. It’s like being on the Titanic and trying to tell people to get in the Lifeboat of Jesus Christ, just like I said earlier and I guess you didn’t seem to hear it or understand it. Just feeding people and taking care of their physical needs will only last a few hours, and as a compasionate Christ follower, those things break my heart, but if you don’t warn them that the Lifeboat is taking the willing to safety you haven’t done them any favors in the big picture of eternity. Many people drowned on the Titanic because they refused to believe that great man-made ship was sinkable…they wanted another drink, another dance, some more of this life.

          • K. Elizabeth Danahy
            October 13, 2014

            Numan, I’ve heard that analogy more times than I can count. I grew up evangelical and dispensationalist :D.
            I never said telling people about Jesus wasn’t important. It is.
            I meant that caring *only* about souls, or something very close to that, can keep people from acknowledging the horror of present suffering via a theology very similar to Gnosticism.

          • Numan Today
            October 13, 2014

            No, the words “Christian” and “humanism” are worldviews that are in a spiritual war against one another. Look up the Humanist Manifesto…it is the doctrine (teaching) of the atheist belief system that will not tolerate co-existing with Christianity (such as Freedom from Religion), who ignores the fact that they have a belief system which only pays homage to human efforts as gods to create their version of a “heaven on earth”.
            I feel that most of the conversations have focused on the symptoms rather than the causes of transformation taking place in America and the world today. As a person interested in history, I have formed the opinion that we are not only having war waged against us for world domination by Islam, but since the late 1800’s, the incremental Fabian Socialists also; so named for the Roman General, Fabius Maximus, who utilized guerilla warfare tactics. Playwright George Bernard Shaw, a Fabianist leader, was quite frank about his plans-“I am a communist. I’m just not a member of the Communist Party.” The Fabian Society began in 1884 as a British socialist movement whose purpose is to advance the principles of Collectivism via gradualism and reforms rather than the militant revolutionary method taken by Vladimir Lenin’s Communism. The Fabian Society is best known for its initial ground-breaking work in England, beginning in the late nineteenth century and continuing up to World War I and beyond. England soon declined from its position as a major world power afterwards. The writings of the American Fabian Socialist Edward Bellamy and his cousin Francis Bellamy in the late 1890’s were the source of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s government controlled Social Security retirement plan in the 1930’s according to Arthur Morgan, a member of FDR’s administration.
            The clash of modern world viewpoints formally came to the world’s stage when the search for another form of governing from the royal monarchical system gave rise to the American experiment in the late 1700’s. With the influence of the independent-minded Christian refugees from European persecution, set in the independent frontiersmen spirit of the North American wilderness, America became “a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere”.

            In the same manner in which the America Revolution initiated a new governmental experiment, Europeans were moved by the same spirit of change to attempt their own experiment, beginning with the French Revolution. Only in the French/European experiment, the revolutionaries’ were strongly influenced by the atheistic humanist “Enlightenment” movement. They not only sought to dispose of the monarchy, but also the belief in a Supreme Creator. With this belief in self-authority, they mistakenly believe collective Utopian socialism is the higher “evolved” form of government. What they failed to understand (because of the spiritual blindness resulting from the fallen nature of man) is that without a spiritual conscience, the biggest egomaniac in the group begins to play “god” and attempts to create his own “heaven on earth” to reign over. The French Revolutionaries then set about to create their own “religion” called the “Cult of Reason”, turning most of the great cathedrals of France into “Temples of Reason”, which is in essence the religion of the modern atheistic movement. The chaos of the French Revolution gave Napoleon the opportunity to become a dictator who spread his conquest across Europe. Since that time, America has gone to war (hot and cold) to resist the multiple dictators in their socialist attempts to absorb the world into their idea of “heaven” (utopia) which that philosophical movement has spawned.
            While we were on guard militarily, the cancer of the European experiment began to incrementally infiltrate our education system beginning in the late 1800’s through the New England Ivy League Universities (sadly, many of which were originally Christian seminaries that became poisoned wells for the Liberal Church’s worldview). From this early Northeastern beachhead began the indoctrination of our pastors, education leaders, politicians, journalists and entertainers, etc., and the assault of the unsustainable European Socialist experiment began to undermine the American experiment. In the early 1900’s liberal President Woodrow Wilson began centralizing policies which included the Federal Reserve and the League of Nations. By the 1930’s FDR began implementing many European styled socialist programs and by the 1960’s the embers erupted into the flames of the Hippie Counter Culture Revolution in which our society has socially spiraled down as the infiltrators deceptively established themselves in every point of influential. This worldview is only advanced by the cloak of deception and fraud motivated by a type of quasi-religious belief system in the atheistic control of mankind’s evolution. With that in mind, it only makes sense that they are not willing to peacefully co-exist with any other belief systems, for as example the organization, “Freedom From Religion” filing lawsuits to stop the National Day of Prayer, etc. to destroy any competing belief system. They will not tolerate any other “god” beside themselves.
            It’s interesting that in Jesus’ day there were also two prominent groups on opposite ends of the political spectrum that united to attack Him. The group known as the Sadducees were equivalent to the modern liberal atheists, in that they were Jews that were Hellenistic in their beliefs; there is no after-life, pleasure is the most important pursuit in life, etc. This was the culture that Alexander the Great had spread in his conquest of the known world almost four centuries before Jesus Christ and is the basis of modern atheist’s philosophy. The Pharisee’s were a staunchly religious Jewish group that followed their rules for the purpose of their own righteousness by following laws that grew more and more strict much like the modern Islamic religion. Jesus called them “white washed tombstones, with dead men’s bones inside.” In the same manner, modern Christians seem to be the common nemesis of the modern liberal collectivists and the fanatical Muslims. We’re in a spiritual war.

          • Eli Odell Jackson
            October 23, 2014

            “Christian humanism”?

            Ah sister, God bless you but if you value the life of the flesh more than a soul then you are deeply deceived.

            Now in Mark 8:36 what did our Lord say when tempted of the devil for the things of the world?

            What did He say?

            What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

            Don’t you see what that means sister?

            The value of a human soul, is worth more than all the diamonds and pearls, all the silver and gold, all the houses and fine mansions, all the millions and billions of precious things in this world… Is diddly squat compared to the most wretched, sinful soul of man, don’t you see the unscriptural sin of exalting the life of the flesh, and the work to ease the burden of sinners above the saving of their souls?

            Sister, it’s a must to help them on their way, Christ didn’t just save souls, He healed the sick, opened shut eyes, unblocked stopped ears, raised the dead and drove out devils.

            Not for the saving of their souls but to ease the burden of their living, as a sign of His Godhood/Godlihood, out of compassion, nevertheless to exalt that vital Christian work above the witnessing that Jesus is Christ, above the saving of souls is grievous error, and to associate yourself with the ungodly, the humanists, don’t you see the error?

            I’ll leave a link here that the Lord willing, you may find gainful, and i’ll be praying for you that you turn from the sin of this wicked error into which you appear to have fallen.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-as4hE0th0

    • Blake Hardeman
      October 10, 2014

      Pretty much the same way with me as well.

    • Eli Odell Jackson
      October 23, 2014

      The concept of a rapture may or may not be true, but the fact is that Christ is coming, and no rapture makes the situation a hundred times more dire for the Christian, and no different at all to the infidel.
      Why would you have this false sense of security?

    • darwin
      September 27, 2015

      And you being hot doesn’t hurt either. 🙂

    • tmunson15
      September 27, 2015

      ahhhh. perhaps you may want to rethink your assessment that the rapture was an invention of ‘200ish years ago’..(more like the 20th century)_… and God does not give one the spirit of fear

  • loNe
    October 3, 2014

    …problem is, Zack, you fell in the opposite Trap.
    Ofcourse the rapture like LeftBehind presents it [and like móst evangelical rapturist preachers] is False.
    …but that does nót mean that the concept itself is False.
    You put yourself in most danger.
    – see, what is false , is tha it is not an ‘escape clausule’, for selfish people, who think they can take their EGO with them to heaven. But there are indeed 144K , who have learned, the hard way, to nót cling to their own ‘i’.
    ..
    ..the context of why the manchild [the 144k] must be taken up, is because another dimension is upon us – a most dark one – the egyptian ‘flower of life’ grid ; or Osiris dimension. It is a cónsciousness, which will engulf the world – and it is THAT which we should fear.
    …compare the tower of babel event: people suddenly totally misunderstood eachother. It was another consciousness which came upon them all. This new-dawn consciousness, false light, is the 1st white horse of 4 – and it has a BOW, because the egyptian pantheon are ‘the 9 bows’. It is the egyptian pantheon who is GOG and MESEKH – mesketiu, ursa major – because gog is ‘the ruler of the nile’ in Isaiah.
    ..if you will study this ‘flower of life’ concept, you will see that it will “rule Man spiritually”, an iron rule, akin to ” Man will be the image of the pántheon”, instead of “Gods image”. So vast and complete is this consciousness which is arriving.
    [compare TutAnkhAmun = the living image of Amun ; and the snake out of his forehead on the mask, is the “fullblown kundalini”..because that is what this consciousness is.
    for a small group it will be ‘lovely’ : but for all those who are His’, it will be Evil Darkness.
    ..
    now
    ..since decades now, but especially the past few years, IT has made incredible stepups to CLOSE this flower of life dimension upon us :
    would it succ”eed, then there will BE NO rapture, NO return of Him and NO 1000 y kingdom !!
    yes its that important
    ..because all of who are His’, would be imprisoned in the flower of life ! including the 144k ! and Legally, that is : spiritual legally, satan would have Trapped all of His men and women. Since you need to know that all is done on Legal Grounds, in that world upthere.
    so what satan does, is TRY DISTRACT… to let His people LOOK FOR FATA MORGANAS… so that they will realize TOO LATE they got TRICKED, when his flower closes !
    he uses ‘ukraine’.. ‘ebola’.. MH370… for attention deflection : worse [ and i know this ll sound crazy – but trust me] : satan even created “this israel”in 1947, as DISTRACTION !
    because it is NOT His’, this ‘israel’ : He wants HIS KINGDOM to come down : not again some slab of land ?? – yet millions of christians “wait for some canaanite 3d temple to be build”: it NEVER WILL !
    it is all distraction ! because those henchmen serve OSIRIS, their false messiah, not Him ? you thought satan was stupid ? he is indeed thát evil, to go create a state in 47, then SUGGEST it is His’ – but it isnt !
    ..
    you see… how, the very moment, the 144K escaped the pantheons ‘flower of life’ Trap, isthe very moment “His kingdom HAS come”? legally ? Rev 12 : “NOW has come the kingdom of our god”. Legally, De facto. THAT is why the world gets dark !
    ..
    what He did, 2000 years ago, was all about the LEGAL victory :
    but it wasnt DE FACTO still ;
    because nów has to be the defacto !
    …and many christians think they can play the hero, soon, deluded by fata-morganas as ‘fema camps’ etc : but what they dont know, is that the éntities will be their worst nightmare… = when the flower of life Trap has closed… – you sée whý those 144K need to get out, befóre it closes..? or, how would they help those millions, who will realize TOO LATE that they got LIED to : and got Trapped ??
    sorry for the many !! : )
    cuddle

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 5, 2014

      ..the context of why the manchild [the 144k] must be taken up, is
      because another dimension is upon us – a most dark one – the egyptian
      ‘flower of life’ grid ; or Osiris dimension. It is a cónsciousness,
      which will engulf the world – and it is THAT which we should fear.

      “Mister Crowley…
      What went on in your head?
      Mister Crowley…
      Did you talk to the dead?”
      — Ozzy Osborne

  • Paul W.
    October 3, 2014

    Dear Mr. Zack Hunt, you stated,

    “While the idea of believers being ‘caught up in the air’ is mentioned, it is metaphorically describing the Second Coming. Paul is not claiming, nor even implying that Christians will disappear before all hell breaks loose on earth.”

    You have substituted a method of parabolic or metaphorical interpretation to discredit your former literal interpretation of the rapture in interpreting the very same Bible verses.

    Your discussion really centers on a “hermeneutical” (interpretational) issue. You apparently formerly interpreted the “rapture” verses literally, following people like Jack Van Impe, and you have now substituted an allegorical or metaphorical or parabolic interpretation for those same Scriptures imitating your advisor, a professor in college. Your method of interpretation has radically changed, and you are now siding with the semi-historical view of a rapture at the end of the age which lumps the return of Jesus to earth in Revelation 19 with the “catching up” (rapture), which requires a partially metaphorical or parabolic interpretation for justification because it ignores crucial biblical details.

    In requesting earlier church history discussions about the “catching up” (the rapture) before the 17th century, you are basically using the “historical” argument of the semi-historical view which mainly begins with Augustine and his era. Augustine, following some others, began to more meticulously suppose the rapture would occur simultaneously to the return of Jesus in Revelation 19, and his views began to dominate in church history for the next 1,000 years. While not everyone followed Augustine, his views predominated for the next millennium.

    To justify your semi-historical position, you really need to display church evidence of discussions before Augustine to prove all early church leaders before Augustine believed the same way Augustine did. If you do the research, you will discover earlier church leaders were not as meticulous as Augustine in defining the “catching up” as an event at the very end of the age (as simultaneous to Revelation 19). Many agreed that the Antichrist would appear before the “catching up,” but they did not necessarily state the “catching up” would occur at the very end of the age simultaneous to Revelation 19 as you appear to assume in your blog article.

    The “historical” argument from church history is really helpful at times, but it is never authoritatively conclusive (contrary to some church views claiming church tradition is authoritative). Bible evidence itself ultimately is the final authority, and that Bible evidence will be reinforced when the “catching up” actually occurs. I interpret the “catching up” to be an event prior to the very end of the age (prior to Revelation 19), but it is an event which will occur AFTER the Antichrist can be identified as Scripture foretells, which agrees with the way some early church leaders before Augustine described their views, if one carefully reads their comments. The identification of the Antichrist before the rapture agrees with my understanding of Scripture. I am convinced your view ignores some very important Bible details which affect the timing of the “catching up” (rapture). I also believe the timing view of the “catching up” in the “Left Behind“ movie ignores important Bible details affecting the timing of the rapture as well, but the movie will accomplish the task of acquainting people with an event described in Scripture about which some people may be totally ignorant, even if the timing of that event in the movie is slightly different from what Scripture actually indicates.

  • loNe
    October 3, 2014

    -added –
    ..and after the world got dark, and He got His millions OUT, still [dubbed: harvest] , and the pantheon then destroys itself, He will come back, visibly: to come claim what is His’ :
    but the pantheon [Gog = mountain] together with his deluded part of humanity [magog =valley/earth] will even thén try stop Him in a war [‘armageddon’]
    ..
    todays edom has changed the context of all these terms: they made ‘russia’ the bad bogeyman, ‘wanting to invade israel’ etc : LIES !
    ..whý, you think this murdering group is called ‘isis’..? – because isis = kundalini , that consciousness of the flower of life ; and Osiris [ Rule] is to rise out of earth !
    ..
    Osiris = enki = AZAZEL, whom Henoch tells that “God imprisoned him inside earth by the Deluge : but after 10,000 years he will surface again”… = NOW… – so Osiris says, “the tunnels of the earth gave birth to me”[ read: he surfaces] … He tells “..and Hell will enlarge itself”… – all tell the same : azazel / appolyon and his locusts [anunna] will surface, when their dimension has started !
    ..
    so, so many occult Rituals going on these days…. MH…isis… ebola… sandy [=enki] .. the concocted ‘war’ in Syria [ = ASER, another name for Osiris] …and they go so fast.. – you need to know, that edom devises those Rituals, to let people give their attention [ = spiritual energy] to them… because it works like Invocation… – its irrelevant whether “good or bad”, the event: either way it generates energy…. its Vampirism…
    ..you know the line “and God will send them a delusion: because they believed the Lie”, right ? read : got TRICKED… by Rituals.. ‘israel’… etc… – you think thats ‘unfair’? – didnt He SAY that satan is a ‘liar from the beginning’???
    ..
    now you know whý HuffPost printed your article.
    cause you sounded like a solid, trustable, reasonable christian:
    yet you have worked for Satan.
    ..
    proof is,
    edom will not post what is TRUE.
    ..
    cuddle

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 5, 2014

      And we have gone from Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory to Occult Kookarama-a-Go-Go.

      Osiris = Enki = Azazel…
      Sandy = Enki…
      Syria = Aser, another name for Osiris…
      Attention = spiritual energy…

      This is starting to sound like the Shaver Mystery, with the Deros shining their Telaug Rays up from inside the Hollow Earth.

      And not much stretch to Francis E Dec Esq’s COMMUNIST GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD ON THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON PARROTING PUPPET GANGSTER ASSASSINS THROUGH FRANKENSTEIN EARPHONE RADIO CONTROLS…

  • Headless Unicorn Guy
    October 4, 2014

    Jack Van Impe? I got burned out on Rapture Fever during the heyday of the Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, back when the Bible only had 3 1/2 books: Daniel, Revelation, the “Nuclear War Chapter” of Ezekiel (the 1/2) and Late Great Planet Earth (which superseded all the others).

    Yom Kippur War Rapture Scare, 1973. Comet Kohoutek Rapture Scare, 1974. Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare, 1975. “All the End Time Prophecies Are Being Fulfilled Even As We Speak!!! We Might Not Have a 1978!!! Or Even a 1977!!!”

    “Bible Studies” where the ONLY book was Late Great Planet Earth. The “Christians For Nuclear War” attitude (It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied!) The constant fear and terror of a Christ whose only purpose was to destroy the world and burn as many as He could in Eternal Hell. ARE YOU SURE YOU’RE SAVED? aRE YOU CERTAIN YOU’RE SURE? ARE YOU SURE YOU’RE CERTAIN YOU’RE SURE? DON’T BE LEFT BEHIND!

    • Bonnie McCann Roberts Godfrey
      December 31, 2014

      If you believe that Jesus is the Truth then you should believe what Jesus said. Jesus said that immediately after the great tribulation they would see the sign of the son of man in the sky and that he would send his angels to gather his elect and chosen ones. He would at this time resurrect the dead saints and change the alive saints in a moment or a twinkling of an eye.

  • Joe Padovano
    October 4, 2014

    I already sent this to Zack on his e-mail blog, but thought I would share it with others, also.

    Have you ever read the book,
    “The Great Controversy” by Ellen G. White. Yes, the idea of Left Behind
    did billow out about 200 years ago, but did you know that the idea
    originated in the 15th/16th century to counteract the reformation of the
    Dark Ages? What other falsehoods came out of the Dark Ages that we are
    still blind to?
    The above mentioned book will shed light on many things you may not have even seen yet.
    I am a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Movement (Church).
    Seventh Day because God changes not
    Adventist because, as you stated, Jesus is coming soon
    God continue to bless you richly
    Joe

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 5, 2014

      I remember a Fifties-era book titled What Jesus Said that was largely End Time Prophecy from the Seventh Day Adventists. All I can say is the SDAs had their own unique take on End Time Prophecy and a unique End Times Choreography Checklist. Completely different from Darbyite Secret Rapture, yet using the same proof texts.

  • Carla
    October 4, 2014

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    • Michael
      October 4, 2014

      1 Thessolonians 4:16. This will be preceded with a shout from the heavens and the trumpet of God. The is the glorious resurrection, not a secret resurrection occurring seven years before the resurrection.

  • Sole
    October 4, 2014

    Mr Hunt, you simply cannot say there are no examples of this concept recorded in the bible. There are – Enoch who walked and talked with God and then was no more. Elijah who suddenly appeared before Jezebel. The transfiguration on the Mount and most importantly, His Son’s resurrection. Why would He not do the same for those whom so loved Him they followed Him unto death – death of “self”? as His Son died, so He might bring many sons to glory – Who are these sons? And what is this glory? if not, “the glorified body” – the rapturous Manchild.
    Every Occult ritual, particularly the illegal habitation of that plot of land Israel, is used again and again, as a stage to fabricate this genuine biblical prophesy, and therefore sabotage the belief, and divert the childish faith of many self seeking evangelical believers, whom do not have a personal relationship with this death,therefore with our Lord. They steal your adoration/energy onto what they have orchestrated you to believe, to work against the Manchild and His Kingdom coming, if that were possible.
    Bless

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 5, 2014

      Can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject…

  • Sole
    October 4, 2014

    Rapture is His Original Adam Heavenly Consciousness, made in His image and likeness but is so distorted now and so altered 9,000 years later, it is beyond recognition and remembrance. The Manchild, spoken of in Revelations, is His gorgeous Original Male Consciousness. The same as what Adam had. It is Satan’s entire goal to prevent His Male rising, with the won back 144k feminine attributes which were stolen from Eve by the Pantheon when her Being was ripped out of Adam at the fall. Their goal is to rise the Pantheon’s Atlantean Consciousness, the Beast, and lock every soul into that Osiris ET dimension – The Great Tribulation. They are advancing in their goal rapidly because they have deviously succeeded to sabotage the belief of millions of souls through their Rituals and diversions.

    So, please tell me, who is going to help all those who will endure this terrifying Tribulation? if not the Raptured ones? The Manchild, are all those whom died to this “i self construction” and will get millions of souls, whom He loves, out of Satan’s Atlantean Prison. That is the beginning of the “fallen ones” destruction and the new earth, prophesied from every prophet to the last prophet, John of Patmos. Why do I say this? I tell you sincerely because He let me to see this ahead of time in dreams and open waking visions, before I even heard of the concept of rapture. This gorgeous event is so far removed from the Tim La Haye version, it is unspeakable. There is no human language to describe the magnitude and magnificence of what He let me to see and to feel.

    • daryl carpenter
      October 4, 2014

      …His gorgeous Original Male Consciousness

      You just got me seriously horny.

      …His male rising

      And again.

      Oh, it’s Revelation, not Revelations (no ‘s’). Other than that, your reasoning is absolutely spot on.

  • Sole
    October 4, 2014

    The Bible, is one long playout to annul Their Sorcery and to get the ego/flesh to die. Why did Paul say he groaned to be clothed with immortality and to have the corruptible put off for the incorruptible? The corruptible, is this biological frame the soul resides in, powered by the “i self flesh” and sustained by the chakras/energy field. It is what they vampire on to maintain this pantheon, torus matrix prison.It is an entire artificial fabrication, and is the legal property of this Intelligent Design cited by media as ET, and completely apart from His original incorruptible Creation – Adam, a most gorgeous, rapturous powerful Being whom ruled all of Eden with His Magnificent Brilliance, whom the fallen ones and their slaves – our ancestral, biological humanoid construction, greatly feared to the point of shaking and went to war against to destroy by the most cunning artifice. This is a 9,000 year epoch playout culminating in this present day darkness.

    There is most definitely a Promise in the Bible of Rapture which every prophet foresaw and longed for but is so distorted by bane evangelical christianity, of which edom is the instigator, with It’s mix of pantheon gnosticism, self seeking “beam me up scotty” and “left behind” nonsense and every other distasteful blend of incompatible flavours, that the entire context is lost. It is Rapture of the soul, NOT the flesh/self. Edom has managed to mutilate this Truth by the most devious means through his henchmen, the likes of Tim La Haye, Hal Lindsay and Jack Van Impe, to appeal to those self seeking, carnal believers who do not know our Lord, nor the rquirements for being His.That is why you and many other western believers were so mesmerised by Edom’s false eschatology and why it became popularised to such a magnitude because it appealed to your “flesh” – what He wanted you to crucify and die to but that is not a popular theology, now is it?

  • Sole
    October 4, 2014

    Their Rituals, are meticulously Spelled out in every ancient text and these same epithets are now being repeated on the Global Theartre, with the participation of the masses, at such an alarming rate, making Satan to advance in his goal so rapidly because the soul is literally being demobilised by the very Darkness of these Rituals as I write this. The augmentation is so stunning that I’m convinced souls are very soon to be bolted into a semi conscious, zombified, isolated and disbanded state. The dark, colourless, monochrome and cold, empty sphere of George Orwell’s 1984 is about the best depiction I can think of.

    Please understand the above from a consciousness perspective – the encapsulating of souls into a completely Alien Consciousness with no escape. Heaven completely shut off to the soul. This is the Great Tribulation. Sure, the global catastrophies, starvation, anarchy, violence, etc, all will come but NOT until they have closed their Spiritual Egypt “flower of life” dimension. I understand the ego finds this difficult to accept, but it is exactly this prideful ego/flesh which prevents the soul from doing so because it is Their construct in the first place; therefore the energies of that construct can and are being used by Them against you, our Lord and His Purpose; to get millions of souls out. It makes perfect sense that Paul should state boldly, the flesh/ego is the enemy of Him and must die.

  • Sole
    October 4, 2014

    Edom couples these Rituals with many fearmongering and bogey man distractions, such as impending WW3 , meterorite collisions, mexican children crossing US borders, threatening gun rights, looming economic collapse and for Christians – false Rapture dreams, given by the Ascended Masters masquerading as Him, coupled with false rapture teachings.

    ET’s/Entities are vampiristic. Your energy field, kundulini, is what they feed on and into. It is a cyclic, torus construction of Their design. Your energy field has and is being imprinted by these entities, presenting the soul with a series of pre programmed thoughts and ideas with a limited range of feelings, which the soul assumes as originating from his/her own being…not so..these, along with your beliefs, are influenced, if not decided for you, as is your present belief Mr Hunt, though you think you have arrived at this conclusion “the rapture does not exist” by independent means…this is not so. These entities need your cooperation to conquer you and they have obtained this via means of Deception, to alter your consciousness and belief is at the very core of this. It is correct what Lone has written, you work for satan, just as Tim LaHaye does, and this is why Huff Post has printed your article and why Edom has made the “Left Behind” movie. All media is owned by Edom, surely you must know this?

  • Sole
    October 4, 2014

    Dear Mr Hunt, the point is, Spiritual Egypt (Satan) has all ready secured yours and millions of other souls by sabotaging your beliefs.

    Edom (the Synagogue of Satan) does this by sorcery, and masking their Occult Rituals with many staged world events (FF’s included); just to name a few – fake moon landing, Chinese Mars Rover,JFK assination, ISON, Sandy Hook, oligarchy weddings, Mandela’s funeral, Ciancian,MH17 and MH370 plane rituals, pope rituals, Apple, MEast conflicts,every war, ISIS beheadings, google doodles, Ebola, ice bucket ritual, India puts an Orbiter around Mars, the list is endless. So many rituals linked and embedded with symbols and corresponding scripts of specific pantheon epithets which the populace subconsciously surrenders their allegiance/energy to, by way of belief, whether it be adoration, grief, anger or outrage.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 5, 2014

      Edom, Synagogue of Satan? Fake moon landing? JFK assination? ISON? Sandy Hook? MH17 and MH370 PLANE RITUALS? Ice Bucket Ritual?

      I smell Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory. With an occult twist.

  • Karissa
    October 4, 2014

    This is an awesome post. I think as Christians we all too often become hung up on the end times and your point that we worship a God who walks us through those times is very important. And we worship a God who cares about all his creation, not just Christians.

  • Jim
    October 4, 2014

    First you are right the actually word Rapture is not in the bible but read 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 and there is the definition of what Christians call the rapture. Call it what you want to but it still exists and if you were a religion major you should have at least learned the basics and one of them is Mark 13:32-34 that no one knows that day or hour, not the angels or even the Son. So what make you so special that you feel you should know? Again the Trinity is just our definition of the three supernatural entities that make up our God and that is God the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ again if you have a better definition great! Finally your comments on God leaving the Jews wandering 40 years, leaving us in the valley of darkness and after the rapture. That is a typical immature spoiled brat mentality. We are given everything we need all we need to do is come to God and accept His Son by faith. The Jews wandered the dessert for 40 year because they were foolish and even after witnessing all those miracle first hand the doubted God. We are given every opportunity but we decided to turn God away, that is our decision to be disobedient and foolish. We go through our trials because God wants us to rely on Him and be submissive. We are not owed a perfect life here on earth because we are not perfect but if we have faith that we will have that perfect life with no suffering once we get to heaven.

  • Mike Llenos
    October 4, 2014

    Nostradamus has an alternative idea about the 7 year tribulation. Rapture believers think the Book of Revelation end times will happen in a 7 year period soon before Christ returns, while Nostradamus believes Christ will return sometime in the 38th century. The reason why people do not believe Nostradamus’ take is that our advancing technology will be Star Trek before the 38th century. But to stop the Star Trek age of plenty all God needs to do is to begin a new Dark Age soon through a comet called Wormwood. Plus, Confucius predicted, through the Mencius, that fresh water would be scarce sometime in our future. These two factors can make our technological advances come to a halt. Of course, Nostradamus believes in a Great Tribulation and a Rapture, but he believes the First and Second Woes are separated from the Third Woe by a great length of time. Plus, the reason why Christ will not return soon is that the 4th Beast (in Daniel 7:1-7) has not risen yet. I actually wrote a paper on this 4th nation in part 4 of my 5-part philosophy book at my website. If you go to google search engine and type my name Michael Llenos at that site, you will find a link to my website that has that paper.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy
      October 5, 2014

      It’s the Full Moon, right?
      It’s gotta be the Full Moon…

  • cjf
    October 4, 2014

    Jesus talks specifically about people getting left behind in Matthew 24:40. Whether they will get left behind as the novel depicts it… The concept of the Rapture is biblical, but it does not seem to be so apart from the Second Coming. Jesus also declares that this gathering away of believers will occur after the tribulation in Matthew. I belive an argument can be made for mid-trib in the Mark account. Regardless, according to Christ, somebody’s getting left.

  • drwinn
    October 4, 2014

    Zack, I found the marketing in the previews at the local theater before the showing of the LB movie, interesting. The first preview was a movie set to come out during the Christian season and staring, of all people, Kirk Cameron, I laughed out loud when I saw it. I attended the movie as a small research project for a group of Bible Studies that I am producing online at TrainingJesusFollowers.com, the first of which is “Decoding the Apocalypse: What the Left Behind Folks Never Told You,” If you choose to look, I would love to hear your comments. http://bit.ly/decoding1

  • drwinn
    October 4, 2014

    Zack, I found the marketing in the previews at the local theater before the showing of the LB movie, interesting. The first preview was a movie set to come out during the Christian season and staring, of all people, Kirk Cameron, I laughed out loud when I saw it. I attended the movie as a small research project for a group of Bible Studies that I am producing online at TrainingJesusFollowers.com, the first of which is “Decoding the Apocalypse: What the Left Behind Folks Never Told You,” If you choose to look, I would love to hear your comments. http://bit.ly/decoding1

  • disciple
    October 4, 2014

    You might want to go a little further. Personally I am a full preterist. So, while I agree to the heading, I don’t with your eschatology in general. I appreciate that you at least have the heart to dig for the truth. I commend you for that.

  • KTZZ
    October 5, 2014

    I’m just a simple man saved by grace, through faith in Jesus. I love reading the bible. One of the things I noticed when reading the bible is most if not all the New Testament writers and Jesus himself used scripture to support their claim or defend their position. I would expect that if a true believer is going to make an absolute claim that the rapture is never ever going to happen or that it is going to happen, they would use scripture to support or defend that. Not one scripture reference by Zack Hunt. Also, I have never understood why believers waste time debating eschatology or trying to figure out prophecies. Doesn’t Jesus cover that in Mark 13 & Matthew 24 & Acts 1 & 1st & 2nd Timothy & 2nd Peter etc… I always figured, because of verses like the ones found in these books and chapters, Luther and Aquinas and Augustine and Calvin and other early great theologians never wasted their time debating it. I’m going to watch the movie because I like movies ????

  • Agent99SP
    October 5, 2014

    ZH…thanks for your post. I’m gratified that you and others are boldly “swimming against the tide” on this rapture issue.

    Consider that it is just one doctrine of a greater system called “Futurism” which is, ultimately, a deceptively introduced alternative system of prophetic interpretation designed to divert the true prophetic revelation that the church of rome is the Harlot of Revelation 17 & 18 and that its Pope (whoever happens to be sitting on that false chair of “Peter”) is the Antichrist. The deception originated with rome itself, specifically its Jesuits Ribera, Bellarmine, Lacunza, Newman et al, as a key Counter-Reformation strategy and was passed on through “protestants” Maitland, Irving, Darby, Scofield, et al.

    I would be interested in anything you would find out about how the church and the world have been deceived about this greater issue.

    Lastly, regarding the Book of Revelation, it certainly contains much worship as found in God’s heavenly sanctuary but it’s also a revealing (??????????) of the judgment of Christ for the rest of history. So, in a sense it is a sort of roadmap. The problem is that the strict literal Futurist roadmap is false, and that is the one pushed by the Dispensationalists such as Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, and thousands more.

    I find that the Historicist prophetic interpretation of the symbolism laid out in John’s Revelation to be the most consistent and accurate explanation of the meaning intended by the Lord. The problem is that to fully grasp the meaning of the Historicist interpretation of the symbolism requires a really good knowledge of history from the time of John’s vision and writing of Revelation to this day. Very few of us have that. I have found a sermon series that does just that, however, and I commend it to you and your readers:

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&currSection=sermonstopic&sourceid=prcnova&keyword=Revelation&keyworddesc=Revelation

    Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Revelation 1:3

  • Hannah Out Loud
    October 5, 2014

    Hi Zack thanks for this post.

    My questions to the readership ,as an outsider and non Christian, but one whose thought about other faiths (rather reminds me of the questions I asked on the alpha course):

    1. Why does God need a rapture to take people to heaven?

    2. Why engineer a process by which non Christians will suffer, when Christians claim they are going to go to heaven anyway because of worshipping of Jesus? Killing a lot of people on a plane as the pilot is raptured, just to speed up a Christian going to heaven seems ludicrous and not in keeping with this apparently loving or just God.

    3.Will these people be judged and how, if they’ve got the ticket to heaven? (The Christian creed says ” he will judge the living and the dead”).

    4. If it happens, doesn’t this defeat the point of faith ?

    5. Why will God intervene at this point to stop Christians from suffering, but allows Christian suffering now?

    6. Why do people claim this rapture/ second coming is just around the corner? In WWI and WWII millions died and suffered. Why didn’t he come and stop all of that? Why wasn’t, say, Hitler the anti Christ?

    7. How come this never features in any of the conversations I’ve had with Christians and if it does, the subject gets quickly changed ?

    8. Why latch onto 1 verse in a massive bible as a basis for this dogma ? Reading it out of the context, makes it such that it can mean anything to anyone…. Paul was a rabbi, right? Rabbis do often speak in analogy and poetry. Even today.

    9. Why does an all powerful God need to battle Satan? Why doesn’t he just click his hands and get rid of him that way and thus save us all the bother?

    10. Why DID Nick Cage agree to be in this film? He is much better being in films like “face off” and ” Alcatraz”.

    I’m not trying to offend or trash another’s belief here, I’m genuinely interested in how all of this logically holds together.

    • Agent99SP
      October 5, 2014

      Hi Hannah,

      Whoa! Those are some good and power-packed questions! Permit me to take a stab at answering some of them. Just so you know who’s responding to you, I am Christian and believe the Bible, Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired Word of God with Jesus Christ as the central figure throughout.

      First, and foremost, as I think was the gist of Zack’s article, the “rapture” teaching of many (certainly not all) “Christian” teachers and pastors for the past 180 or so years is a FALSE teaching and not a message at all conveyed in the New Testament by Jesus or Paul or any other apostle. Unfortunately, the majority of professed Christians in the U.S. believe this false teaching mostly because very little true teaching on the return of Christ is advanced to counter it.

      There is a passage in Paul’s first letter to the church in Thessalonica about the return of Jesus and His coming for those who had already died (“fallen asleep) before His prophesied return. Paul wanted the Christians there to know that those who had “fallen asleep” should not be sorrowed over, but would be resurrected upon His return and join those who remained with the Lord in His eternal kingdom. The part that describes what will happen to the believers still alive at Jesus’ coming is what has been exploited as this false teaching.

      Here’s the passage which has been grossly misinterpreted as the “rapture”:

      “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

      1Thessalonians 4:13-18

      The words “caught up” are the English translation of the Greek ?????? (harpazó) which means to catch up; like its used in the verse. The Latin rendering of harpazó is rapturo, hence the quasi-Christian pop term “rapture”.

      The summary of this, to try to answer your first question, is that God does not need a “rapture” to take people to heaven. But He has promised that He will conquer death and that those who trust that Jesus is the promised Messiah, who is eternal, fully God and fully man, who has borne the Father’s wrath for their sins, will be forgiven of their sins (the sins will be completely forgotten by Him), will receive an imputation of Jesus’ perfect, sinless life, and will ultimately be resurrected (given a completely new, incorruptible physical existence) and live eternally with Him in His glorious sin-free kingdom.

      There’s more to the whole secret “rapture” false teaching as its portrayed in the fictional Left Behind books & movies as well as teachings in churches that I’ll explain as I’ll try to offer an answer to some of your other questions in another post.

    • Agent99SP
      October 5, 2014

      Hey Hannah,

      Regarding your second question, its best to suggest that the scenarios from the Left Behind books & movies are FICTIONAL and the product of the author’s imaginations.

      They spring forth from a false teaching that originated in the late 16th century from catholic Jesuit priests in an effort to counter the biblical teaching recovered during the Protestant Reformation that the dynasty of roman Popes were the prophetic and historic Antichrist testified to in passages written by Paul and John the apostle. Further, the Protestant Reformers interpreted the prophetic passages from the New Testament, particularly the Book of Revelation, as being fulfilled in history from the end of the first century AD til the return of Jesus Christ.

      This teaching of the Protestant Reformation, as well as a recovery of the biblical basis of the believer’s justification (being legally declared “righteous”) before God when the original texts of the New Testament were recovered and translated into the common languages in Europe, was bleeding rome dry (losing church members…so to speak) and they had to do something about it. Regarding justification, rome says one must be a member of her (false) church and perform all her rituals and then one will go to heaven after a prolonged stay in purgatory where the sinner will work off his/her own sins. The Bible, however, reveals that one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess Him with his/her mouth and then he/she will be saved and receive eternal life. It’s pretty simple, because Jesus alone fulfills all the requirements of God’s law as outlined in the Old Testament including the ceremonial sacrificial system, whereby He fulfilled it as the Lamb of God, Christ the Passover through His death for sinners. His resurrection testifies that it was an acceptable sacrifice to God for His people.

      So the Jesuits concocted a Counter-Reformation escatology which basically said that all of the prophetic passages in the New Testament as well as some from the Old Testament pertained to some future seven-year tribulation period (false interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel) (not the history of pagan and later Papal Rome), the Antichrist is some future political figure (not the Pope) and the rapture would take all the saints out of the earth before he could do anything bad to them, thus rendering them ineffective as soldiers for Christ (when I say “soldiers,” I mean those who would boldly contend for the true faith once delivered to the saints–not in a physical but a spiritual battle.)

      This Jesuitical, Counter-Reformational eschatology was meant to deceive and eventually worked its way into Protestant churches, seminaries and Study Bibles. It has been a pretty effective deception, unfortunately.

    • Agent99SP
      October 5, 2014

      Hey Hannah…its me again. I just thought you had some really valid questions that I wish Christians would ask and seek out answers for, that I want to try to answer them as best I can.

      So…on to questions 3 & 4. I assume the people you reference in question 3 are the ones who are supposedly “raptured.” As I have tried to show you in my earlier posts addressing questions 1 & 2, the rapture is a false teaching as it’s portrayed in the Left Behind books & movies and proceeds from a Counter-Reformation deception. Therefore, there is no true scenario about these people being judged. Rather than wrestle through a false scenario, I’ll just answer with the New Testament teaching on the final judgment.

      Revelation Chapter 20, verses 11 through 15 describe it best:

      And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

      This passage basically says that all whose names are not in the Book of Life will be eternally damned because of their sins and unbelief in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, whom He promised to send from the beginning:

      And I (God) will put enmity between you (the serpent Satan) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed (Jesus Christ); He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.
      Genesis 3:15

      The Lamb’s Book of Life contains the names of all of God’s elect, Jew & Gentile…those whom he chose before the creation of the world:

      Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
      Ephesians 1:3-6

      These names represent those whom, by God’s grace, through faith in Jesus Christ will be forgiven of their sins, will be found acceptable by God because of His works (perfect life, and sustitutionary sacrificial death) and their being united to Him (Jesus) by faith, and receive eternal life in the new heavens and the new earth:

      But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
      Revelation 21:27

      They escape the condemnation of God’s wrath as Jesus already bore His wrath on their behalf in his crucifixion and death.

    • Agent99SP
      October 6, 2014

      Hannah,

      Regarding question 5, as I responded in my earlier posts, the “rapture” is a false teaching that arose out of the Counter-Reformation, so it doesn’t reflect or explain God’s actions at all. God does have a plan for all of history, but the Futurist eschatology “pre-Tribulation rapture” teachers misinterpret much of the Scriptures to make it fit their preferred system. Although this is wrong, it is nothing new. People misinterpret Scripture or even re-write it, taking parts out, to make it more acceptable to themselves or their groups. Each reader/student of God’s Word has the responsibility to read it and try to understand it according to God’s intended meaning, not a subjective, private interpretation.

      The people who continue to propagate this teaching base the timing of the presumed intervention of God in removing them from the earth has to do with the timing of “The Great Tribulation.” Jesus did refer to a time of great tribulation on the earth:

      For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
      Matthew 24:21-22

      This short quote comes from a discourse Jesus was having with his disciples about His coming and the end of the age. I don’t like quoting it out of context, but it would be too long to quote it in full here. If you have the time & inclination, I recommend looking up that passage. If you don’t have a New Testament, there are numerous online Bibles where you could easily look it up, such as Bible Gateway or Biblia.com and I suggest you read a King James or New King James version rather than any of the other English translations. Anyway, Jesus is basically describing at a very high level that there will be trouble on the earth over history (which we all know is true) and several verses discuss the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. which was still future to those whom Jesus was addressing.

      Jesus makes a distinction about the great tribulation, that its the worst ever seen on earth, and it follows immediately after His discussion of the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem. So its difficult to know if He is referring to that event as “those days” or that the destruction of Jerusalem is the beginning of great tribulation across history. Either way, He goes on to say that “those days shall be shortened” so that the elect will be saved. When He says “saved”, I think He means the elect will receive their salvation, not be removed from physical threat/danger. In fact, in His High Priestly prayer to the Father, before going on to be tried and crucified, he prayed that His people NOT be removed from the earth:

      I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
      John 17:14-16

      There’s also a reference to great tribulation on Revelation:

      And one of the elders answered, saying unto me (the Apostle John while receiving his vision of the events in heaven), “What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?”
      And I said unto him, “Sir, thou knowest.” And he said to me, “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
      Revelation 7:12-13

      The Futurist teachers claim that this time of great tribulation is still future and spans a period of seven years where an evil Antichrist, who most likely is a political leader will rise up to deceive everyone and claim himself to be God. The seven year period comes from a misinterpretation of the 70th Week of Daniel from Daniel 9:

      Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
      Daniel 9:24-27

      This passage had historically been interpreted that each week represented a period of 7 years (a day for a year in prophecy) and that after the “seven weeks and threescore and two weeks” would be the coming of Messiah Jesus 483 (69×7) years later, and that the remainder of the passage pertained to Him, His coming as a man and His death and resurrection for sinners in the 70th week. The Futurist teachers teach that there is an enormous gap in time from the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week and that this 70th week is the seven year “Great Tribulation” which is still future and that the “he” in verse 27 pertains to the Antichrist and not to Jesus. They believe that the 3rd temple will be built in Jerusalem where the sacrificial system will be reestablished and then this Antichrist political figure will come in and disrupt the system and will assume a throne there and force the world to worship him.

      There is also a passage in Daniel 7 about the little horn, which is correctly interpreted as the Antichrist by both Historicists and Futurists. The difference is that Historicists interpret it as the roman pope that rose out of the 4th beast which is clearly ancient pagan rome. This is clear to see if one knows the history of the rise of the bishop of rome after the move of the emperor Constantine out of rome and to the eastern capital of the empire as well as after the fall of the empire. However, the Futurists claim he is this yet unidentified future political leader. See how this false system diverts people’s attention from the papal system?

      So the final answer to your question is that God will not be removing His people from the earth until the time of the end when Jesus will return to earth. He will judge each person and then completely destroy the earth by fire. The Scripture tells of His promise to make a new heaven and a new earth and bring his transformed people into it where they will dwell with Him forever.

      • Hannah Out Loud
        October 7, 2014

        Hi agent,

        Well thanks for the responses, which I’ve read. My only confusion is why this rapture/ left behind film has anything to do with the Catholic church. The books and the idea of rapture as Zack has been critiquing are decidedly Protestant in origin, not Catholic. At least that’s what my further research on Wikipedia suggests….

        • Agent99SP
          October 7, 2014

          Good morning Hannah!

          It’s true that most, if not all, the people propagating the false teaching of the “pre-tribulational rapture” are “Protestants”…at least that’s what they claim to be. To be fair, many are true Christians who have been deceived by the dominance of this teaching which goes back, in the U.S., to the tremendous acceptance of the Scofield Reference Bible and its notes, in the early 20th century. This “study bible” interpreted many of the prophetic passages as harmonious with the futurist system, which is truly Catholic/Jesuit in origin. It was extremely influential and led to what we have today.

          Respectfully, since the revelation that this futurist deception is Catholic/Jesuit in origin would be damaging to rome, it won’t be explained on mainstream sources such as Wikipedia.

          Here are some links that will provide you some good sources to get started on further research:

          http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/jesuit-end-times-antichrist-deception/

          http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

          The second link leads to a source which explains in detail the Jesuitical origin of both Futurism and another alternative prophetic interpretive system called Preterism. Preterism basically teaches that all or most of the prophecies of the Book of Revelation applied to pagan rome’s destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and that Antichrist was Nero Caesar. This teaching also diverts from the papal identity of Antichrist since it is supposedly fulfilled in the pagan roman emperor, before the pope existed (although, the roman church claims the apostle Peter was the first pope who would have lived around that same time…this is a whole other discussion!..not pertinent to the subject at hand.) Very crafty, aren’t they…like their father the devil!

          To better understand why they would want to do this and to what lengths they will go to try to cause/force all under the pope, it would be profitable to read the oath the Jesuit commander (they are a military order) takes as he advances to the fourth degree:

          http://www.reformation.org/oath.html

          And if you’re REALLY ambitious in getting to know the truth, try reading a history of the order:

          http://www.reformation.org/jesuits.html

          I think these sources explain the subject better than I have done.

      • Jim Barrett
        October 9, 2014

        If there is no rapture then explain this ….
        The word rapture is not actually
        in the Bible but neither is the word Trinity, even though we know God is Three
        Persons. So where did this word come from? The word rapture comes
        from a translation of the words “caught up” found in 1 Thessalonians
        4:17. The Latin word for this is rapturo. The Greek
        word for “caught up” is harpazo. Let’s read the context of
        First Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven
        with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of
        God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and
        remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
        the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” Some theologians
        believe this is the coming of the Lord for His saints while others believe this
        is the rapture that occurs just before or in the middle of the Great
        Tribulation. The wording of “caught up” has the force of being kidnapped
        or taken by force. This doesn’t mean it is against their will for anyone
        who trusts in Christ willingly wants to be with the Lord and today all
        believers look forward to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

        • Agent99SP
          October 10, 2014

          I believe that the passage in 1Thess 4:13-18 describes the Resurrection at the end of the age at Jesus’ return, not as a secret, pre-tribulation event as part of a two-stage return of Christ.

          Jesus mentions this resurrection in John’s Gospel:

          John 6:39
          This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

          John 6:40
          And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

          John 6:44
          No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

          John 6:54
          Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

          Paul associates the resurrection with Christ’s coming:

          1Co 15:21-23

          For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

          Consider the discourse between Jesus and Martha regarding the death of her brother Lazarus:

          John 11:21-25
          Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.”

          Martha stated her understanding that Lazarus would rise again in the resurrection at the last day. She didn’t say anything about a rapture before a 7 year tribulation. The most important thing is that neither did Jesus. Recall that in 1Thess 4, the dead in Christ rise first before those who remain are caught up. In fact, the purpose of the passage was for Paul to reassure the believers that those who had “fallen asleep” would be resurrected:

          1Thess 4:13-15
          But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

          Another thing about this false secret rapture, 2-stage return of Christ teaching is that the Scriptures that tell of the return of Jesus all describe it as visible and audible to all:

          1Thess 4:16
          For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

          Act 1:9-11
          Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

          Mat 24:30-31
          Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Mark 13:26-27
          Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
          And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

          Luke 21:27-28
          Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

          Matt 24:27
          For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

          Rev 1:7

          Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

          • Bonnie McCann Roberts Godfrey
            December 31, 2014

            The two scriptures you use from Matthew and Mark start with the word then. When is then. If you would have included the verse prior to the verses you quoted you would have seen that the gathering of the saints will take place immediately after the great tribulation. Why at this time? Because Jesus is getting ready to pour out his wrath on the unbelievers. Jesus said it would happen just like the days of Noah. Just prior to the flood coming he gathered Noah and his family into a place of safety so he could bring judgment on the unrighteous. The same with Sodom and Gamorrah.

    • Guest
      October 9, 2014

      This is human rationalizing. Why did God rapture Enoch before the flood? Romans 9:22 says, “In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.”. The same God that you say is unjust for letting evil exist is the One you then say is unjust for punishing humans for not doing what their sin natures entice them to do. He has a plan…it’s not your plan, He has seen all the humans from the first to the last and He’s holding back His wrath for the people in the future and then He will put the trial that we’re a part of in the spiritual rebellion in the Univers
      to an end…but it will be according to HIS plan and time, not ours.

    • Numan Today
      October 9, 2014

      This is human rationalizing. Why did God rapture Enoch before the flood? Romans 9:22 says, “In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.”. The same God that you say is unjust for letting evil exist is the One you then say is unjust for punishing humans for doing what their sin natures entice them to do. He has a plan…it’s not your plan, He has seen all the humans from the first to the last and He’s holding back His wrath for the people in the future and then He will put the trial that we’re a part of in the spiritual rebellion in the Univers
      to an end…but it will be according to HIS plan and time, not ours

      • Hannah Out Loud
        October 10, 2014

        Hi,

        The first point is meaningless because we alI rationalize what’s around us and what we read. You are also doing this, but via the prism of Christianity.

        I never said God was unjust for letting “evil” exist. What I asked was why God needs to be in perpetual conflict with how Christianity personifies evil in the form of the devil when God , because he’s God, has the capacity to destroy this creature any time. It’s quite a one sided contest , isn’t it. So why make us all go through these hoops of end times etc? That does seem quite sadistic doesn’t it?

    • Darryl Willis
      October 23, 2014

      Yeah. Question 10 really stumped me… 8^)

  • Headless Unicorn Guy
    October 5, 2014

    Some references I have found on the subject (as one who got burned bad by it):

    This is a community of believers who are shaped almost entirely by the manipulative authoritarian spirituality of pastors who seem to have never heard of the doctrine of creation, the Kingdom of God, the present Lordship of Jesus or the church as the living body of Christ. This is a vision of evangelicalism that is loading a plane for escape from this world as quickly as possible.

    The rapture and a strange rejoicing in the demise of the world into darkness loom over Hell House. A few souls will be snatched from the fires, and the church will bear witness to the truth in the waning years of the last days. But ultimately, the world is a lost cause and the church is a lifeboat operation.

    There are various ways to live out this vision, and not every community of evangelicals would express their vision in the same way as the community observed in Hell House. But it is not hard to see that many would judge this kind of community the bitter leftovers of the Reformation. A church marginalized. A theology gutted by ignorance. Worship and mission methodology dictated by entertainment and pragmatism. The culture war dominating the agenda, with the Gospel reduced to the purchase of a ticket to escape the coming apocalypse.

    — Internet Monk, “Hell House: an Evangelicalism Eager to Leave”
    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/thoughts-on-hell-house-an-evangelicalism-eager-to-leave

    “Up on the Roof”, from Real Christians Don’t Dance by John Fischer:
    http://www.ccel.us/dance.chap34.html

    And one that’s not online, an excerpt from UFO Religion: Inside Flying Saucer Cults and Culture by Gregory L Reece. This is the tail end of Chapter 6, “Beam Ships from the Pleiades”, an epitaph for Heaven’s Gate, AKA the Bo-Peepers, AKA that mass suicide cult in San Diego years ago. Does this sound familiar?


    Heaven’s Gate was a closed society, suspicious of the external world. In place of the kooky fun of most contactees, Heaven’s Gate was deadly serious. … Unlike most other contactee groups and practically all of the individual contactees, Heaven’s Gate found little that was good in human nature, little that could give them hope. What hope they had was thought to be coming from above, a starship in a comet’s tail. They had given up on transforming the world; the best they could do was to escape it.

  • ImAllBooked
    October 5, 2014

    Great article, and I agree with your assessment. One of my concerns with the Left Behind series is with how seriously Christians take it. When I criticize works like LB and “The Shack” I’ve had Christians tell me to lighten up because they are just fiction. But they are not read that way. (“The Shack” has been used for Sunday School classes and Bible studies, for crying out loud.) One of the promo ads for LB quotes author Karen Kingsbury as saying, “This is a very important movie about real life events.” First of all, LB is FICTION, and secondly, how can it be about “real life events” when these events haven’t even taken place yet, and no one knows for certain how it’s all going to play out?

  • Larry
    October 6, 2014

    Has this guy ever read Matthew 24:40 or Luke 17:34 or the parable about the virgins where half were taken and half were left? Those passages ARE talking about a RAPTURE event. I guess this blogger failed to read those parts of the bible.

  • Billiam
    October 6, 2014

    The rapture is interesting to think about but alas I just think too many people are really, really, excited to see it happen. I think Amos 5:18 should be in front of us when thinking about the end times: Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good is the day of the LORD to you? It will be darkness, and not light.

    Although, I wonder, in reading this from Zack and seeing how others think I guess: Ok, the rapture is a fairly new teaching. We’re looking at end time events in a new way for the last few hundred years. Certainly, you must be squaring up your thinking with the way that the church is approaching some of the other social issues of our day right? It seems, to me at least, that many are trading false teachings for false teachings.

  • Johnny Megale
    October 6, 2014

    1. I agree that we’ve been living in the “last days” since Jesus’ resurrection. I think “last age” is a more appropriate term, where “last” means last age of governance by man. When Christ returns for his 1,000 year reign He will literally be the chief of nations on His throne in Jerusalem.

    2. I also agree that many prophetic “teachers” try to fit stories in the news and make them fit a pre-Armageddon scenario that changes with every new story or bit of information received.

    3. As far as the “rapture” concept only appearing since Darby in the 1800s, that’s not true. Many of the early church fathers, (before the Roman Catholics dominated Christianity from the 4th century until the Protestant Reformation) believed in a literally catching away. This was to happen before Christ’s appearing to the entire world at what we consider “the second coming.” The Roman Catholics teaching is “amillennial” meaning they believe we’ve been in the thousand year reign of Christ ever since His resurrection, extended by grace another thousand (and counting) years.

    4. I believe the “Day of the Lord” as put together through the books of Daniel, 1st Thessalonians, the epistles of John, and Revelation, describe a 7 year process in which the Church (the bride of Christ) is caught away so God can judge the unbelieving world system and restore Israel to be the preeminent nation during the millennial kingdom.

    5. There is no purpose for the Church during the “7 year tribulation.” Christ celebrates a 7 year wedding feast with is in Heaven. He alluded to this in his parables of the 10 virgins with the oil. The 5 wise virgins (the Church) kept their lamps filled with oil (Holy Spirit) until he took them to be with Him during the midnight call (an hour of which they were not aware). Christ’s literal “second coming” will not be a surprise to the entire world! It will be a date set in stone, 7 years from the signing of the covenant from Daniel chapter 9. He comes like a thief in the night for the Church, but returns *with* all His holy ones (1 Thess. 3:13) at the literal second coming. This is all clearly supported by scripture; not my own interpretation.

    6. During the 7 years of tribulation, the 144,000 Jewish men, set apart by God, do the work of the Church in spreading the gospel (Rev. 7 and 14). People who are “left behind” will still have an opportunity to hear of Christ from these witnesses, not to mention the 2 witnesses (Rev. 11) preaching in Jerusalem. This will be a difficult time of progressive judgement on the world. If you notice, the Church isn’t mentioned at all in Revelation from chapter 4 (when John is called up) until near the end of the book when Christ returns (literally) when *every* eye sees.

    7. Our “blessed hope” (Titus 2:13) that Paul describes is escaping of God’s ultimate wrath, culminating in establishing His earthly kingdom, but it’s not escapism. He doesn’t judge his bride, which is filled with His Holy Spirit (the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thess. chapter 2). Our judgement was paid for on Calvary and our belief in Him shields us from God’s wrath.

    8. There is no lack of “love of the world” as the author describes. The world as in “world system” governed by Satan is being judged during those 7 years! God still loves people through the progressive judgements of that period, sending the evangelical Jews during that period to spread the everlasting Gospel, but the work of the Church (times of the Gentiles) has been completed.

    9. The book of Revelation is absolutely a road map! It shows an unbelieving world that God foretold all these things thousands of years in advance. Every prophecy concerning Christ’s first coming was fulfilled literally. That’s why so many Jews missed it; their teachers had spiritualized the prophecies. There will be many “tribulation martyrs” because millions upon millions will come to faith during that time period. That’s literally when the gospel will be spread across the whole world before Christ returns.

    10. Could Jesus return for the Church tomorrow? Absolutely. Could it be 100, 1,000, or 10,000 years in the future? Absolutely. The “super sign” of our times is Israel back in its land after ~1,900 years of diaspora beginning in 70 AD with the destruction of their temple and culminating in 1948 with the establishment of statehood, (in fulfillment of Ezekiel 37). No one knows the day or hour of Christ’s return, but when you see articles like this and an increasing skepticism of the point of view I’ve shared, consider the following from the 3rd chapter of 2 Peter:

    “Scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 2 Peter 3:3-4

    “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night” 2 Peter 3:10

    The term “day of the Lord” is not a literal day: “But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” 2 Peter 3:8

    Modern English would more appropriately translate “day” in this context as “time” or “age.” The old “age” (last days) ends as the next “age” (tribulation or “day of the Lord”) begins, followed by the glorious millennial reign of Christ. Hallelujah!

  • Stephen Andrew Card
    October 6, 2014

    Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few;

    -Matt 9:37

    “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[ And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

    “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

    -Matt 6:25-34

    So what are we waiting for?

    And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

    -Matt 16:15

    Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    -Matt 28:16-20

  • Bryan Owens
    October 6, 2014

    Totally agree with you. I have more fuel for the fire as well:

    Matthew 24 37-39

    37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    This verse and the ones following seem to imply a rapture of sorts, but if you read carefully, who is actually being “left behind”? It is Noah. The flood comes and takes away all the “bad people” leaving behind Noah and his family.

    The passage goes on…

    40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    They way I see it, I think we want to be the ones left… not the ones taken away, right?

    Even if there was a rapture, it seems that they have gotten the whole thing backwards… 🙂

  • Thomas Koester
    October 6, 2014

    Operation Rapture – The Defeat of Christian Triumph & World Influence – By Thomas Koester

    September 22, 2014

    First, let me say that prophecy does indeed matter, and having a clear understanding, at least as clear as possible, of end-time events is essential to healthy Christian living. In other words, future, and near future prophetic events should not cause fear, but rather hope. Also, our eschatological views, no mater the variance, should not cripple our testimony and mission of preaching the gospel to all people, and at all times.

    Just as Paul charged Timothy:

    2 Timothy 4:1-2 (ESV)

    4 “I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.”

    Our end-time, prophetic views should purify us, not scare us, or for that matter, scare people into believing the truth of Jesus Christ. Also, our hope is not in heaven, but in Christ, and it’s when He is the center and focus of our hope that we become pure, as he is pure.

    1 John 3:2-3 (ESV)

    2 “Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”

    So, in light of this, let’s discuss the impact of today’s end-time, prophetic views on Christianity; on our mission and influence. Pre-tribulation rapture and premillennialism is a few of Christianity’s great deceptions, and it became popular at the turn of the 19th Century and spreaded like a virus into the 20th Century. It began with a Jesuit Priest, named Manuel Diaz Lacunza, (1731 – 1801), who’s false eschatological teaching influenced John Nelson Darby, (1800-1882), and others. Later, C.I. Scofield, (1843 -1921), popularized the premillennial and dispensational views, and Dr. Scofield’s notes, sermons and commentaries were actually published on the pages of the Bible.

    The Apostles and the early Church Fathers did not teach this end-time interpretation and theory. In modern times, men like Charles C. Ryrie, born March 2, 1925, along with Hal Lindsey, and Tim LaHaye, are but a few of the modern day prognosticators and purveyors of end-time prophecy. They are responsible for the unintended consequence of Christianity’s focus on millennialism, and away from the Great Commission of Christ, and the preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God in the here and now.

    Matthew 24:14 (ESV)

    “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

    I have read a lot of these authors, teachers and pastors, and I am not rejecting, or denying their faith and belief in God. I am only pointing out how their focus of millennialism, whether it be pre, post, or nonexistent, has distracted mainstream Christianity from the gospel mandate in reaching the lost world. If Christianity remains so focused on vacating earth, and end-time theological theory, America will grow dark like Europe, as Christianity has left Europe’s shores years ago.

    “Operation Rapture,” has created a defeatist attitude, which has gripped mainstream Christianity, and taken it off the task and messaging of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It abandons the present reality and proclamation of the Kingdom of God, pushing it off into the distant future, and rejects the here and now presentation of the Kingdom of God, preached and taught by Jesus Christ himself, two thousand years ago.

    Furthermore, it repudiates and marginalizes the great tribulation and suffering, which most of our Christian Brothers and Sisters are, and have been undergoing presently, and for past decades. Please read the following letter excerpt, written by the late Corrie Ten Boom in 1974:

    “In China, the Christians were told, “Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, “We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint.”

    I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.We are next.” – Corrie Ten Boom (written 1974)

    It really bothers me when I hear my Christian friends bemoan the trails of this life, and their worries of apocalyptic doom, yet the only good news out of their mouths is that of the rapture, “Operation Rescue.” This defeatist attitude and longing for an airlift into the heavens, has neutralized Christianity’s spiritual and cultural impact on the earth.

    Make no mistake, I believe in a soon and coming appearing of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the taking up of the saints; his judgment and reward for his children, and eternal judgment towards those who’ve rejected the Gospel and the only Living Truth, Jesus Christ. However, this should stir us towards preaching the Gospel, not whining and crying for the return of Christ and Operation Rescue. While mainstream Christianity is preoccupied with the rapture, its mission and influence is disappearing from the earth! It certainly has in Europe, and is now nearly invisible here in America.

    John 4:35 (ESV)

    35 “Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest.”

    You lazy Christian! Don’t you understand? You are “Operation Rescue,” to a dying world, which needs to hear about the only hope and message hidden within your hearts and souls? Jesus Christ, came to earth, born as a man, to redeem those born under the law of sin and death that he, through your testimony and preaching may save those who are perishing. The sowers have been sowing the seed of Truth for centuries, and now the easy work of harvesting is yours.

    Yes, your redemption is drawing nigh, but so is the condemnation and eternal judgment of those whom you’ve failed by not preaching and living the Gospel.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 (ESV)

    10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.”

    Saints are being murdered, beheaded and imprisoned throughout the world. Yet, your belief of a pre-tribulation rapture and premillennial eschatology seems to have forgotten them, and they feel left behind and forgotten by the Western Churches. And the world, well they’ve not seen hide nor hair of the present Kingdom of God, and the glorious economy of the Risen and ruling King of Kings. You’ve kept kicking the can of God’s Kingdom down the road, instead of announcing it’s existence and the power of His Kingdom economy.

    Mainstream Christianity has corrupted herself in the prosperity messages of Heaven now, Kingdom later, and that persecution and tribulation is for those poor souls “left behind.” You’ve been duped and led astray by false shepherds; gathering to themselves many disciples, and lining their pockets with loads of your money and celebrity acclaim. Don’t you see? Their perversion and false message is designed to appeal and to attract you; corralling you into their tents, and away from your true calling and mission.

    Matthew 5:10-12 (ESV)

    10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

    2 Timothy 3:12 (ESV)

    12 “Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted…”

    Foolish Christian, is not the suffering life of Christ good enough for you? Maybe your opposition and fear of tribulation and persecution is because you have refused to live the crucified life, and preach the crucified and risen Savior. You have become addicted to the single attribute of Love, and have rejected the Wrath and Vengeance of God, His Justice; Holiness and Righteousness. The world needs to hear the truth of their condition before the arrival of The Righteous and Holy God. Salvation through repentance of sin and belief in the Son is their only access to the Father and everlasting life.

    Our trivial handling of God’s grace and his love has produced a God, which requires no repentance, or sorrowfulness of sin.

    Hebrews 10:26-31 (NET Bible)

    26 “For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God’s enemies. 28 Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

    The only remedy against the wrath and anger of God is belief in the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. Only believing in Christ Jesus will God’s righteous and holy anger be averted. The world, and yes, even your neighbor remains under God’s wrath, unless you venture out from your comfortable living and abandon your distraction with your ex-filtration. You are the rescue, and your “Ops” is to infiltrate the world with the message of salvation.

    If God is all Love, then what did God pour out on Christ Jesus? And what is waiting for, and held in reserve for those whom you’ve failed to speak the only remedy against God’s wrath? Your “Love Card” only presents a tolerant God, who winks and giggles at sin and compromise. Yes, God is Love, but only to the believer, those who love God.

    1 John 4:8 (NET Bible)

    “The person who does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

    James 4:4J.B. (PHILLIPS)

    4-6 “You are like unfaithful wives, flirting with the glamour of this world, and never realizing that to be the world’s lover means becoming the enemy of God! Anyone who deliberately chooses to love the world is thereby making himself God’s enemy. Do you think what the scriptures have to say about this is a mere formality? Or do you imagine that this spirit of passionate jealousy is the Spirit he has caused to live in us? No, he gives us grace potent enough to meet this and every other evil spirit, if we are humble enough to receive it. That is why he says: ‘God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’

    Through belief and teaching of Pre-Trib Rapture, Premillennial Eschatology, Dispensationalism, Prosperity Preaching, and the Love Card, we have turned the only Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ into a Golden Calf, and we call it Yahweh!

    Pray for our Brothers and Sisters in Christ throughout the world, who’ve been in great tribulation for years, and have been “Left Behind” by Christianity, preoccupied with leaving the world, rather than occupying and transforming it.

    Revelation 21:8 (TLB)

    “But cowards who turn back from following me, and those who are unfaithful to me, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the immoral, and those conversing with demons, and idol worshipers and all liars—their doom is in the Lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This is the Second Death.”

    Hebrews 10:39 (PHILLIPS)

    “Surely we are not going to be men who cower back and are lost, but men who maintain their faith until the salvation of their souls is complete!

    Please listen to the video message from Corrie Ten Boom: (You will have to confirm your age, do to the content of the video)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wftuv0NeC4E

    For further study, check out the following sites:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Lacunza

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Irving

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Scofield

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Caldwell_Ryrie

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

    Dispensationalism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Dispensationalism is an evangelical, futurist, Biblical interpretation that understands God to have related to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants in a series of “dispensations,” or periods in history. WIKIPEDIA

    *All Bible quotes are from http://www.BibleGateway.com.

    • Agent99SP
      October 7, 2014

      So well said, Thomas. You are exactly right. Clearly, this result you describe of the false teaching of the Dispensational pre-tribulational rapture and its pre-millenialism, is one of the things the Jesuits intended from their Counter-Reformation, which is still going strong.

      Jesus addresses it:

      Mat 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. (NKJV)

      True Christianity is being trampled underfoot by those men and this continues to this day. Nevertheless, God won’t leave us alone about it. He will discipline His church and conform it to its true form and purpose. Jesus has built and is building His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

      I think it does us well to recall the Lord’s parable of the wheat and the tares:

      Mat 13:24-30

      Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ‘ ”

      Mat 13:36-43

      Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

      This and many other scripture passages tell of false teachers infiltrating the church and leading the sheep astray (Mat 7:15, Mat 24:24, Acts 20:29-30,Jude, Eph 4:14, 2Pet 2:1-2, et al.) They will meet their destruction. But, until He comes and dispenses His final judgment on them, the true believers in the true Jesus must read and study their Bibles, learning from the Word that the devil sends false teachers into the church; then Christians would test all the spirits against the Word of God and they would be able to recognize the false doctrines of these false teachers which so threaten to damage them as the true Bride of Christ and its witness of the gospel of Christ.

      The true church, knowing and believing His Word MUST CONTEND earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) as you have so eloquently outlined. In contending for the truth, it is imperative for true believers in the Jesus of the Bible (there are many false Christs (Mat 24:24)) to boldly and intelligently make the necessary distinctions between the truth and the lies! This is genuine spiritual warfare, just as was done during the Protestant Reformation. To make these important distinctions may/will be divisive. But Jesus said, “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.” Luk 12:51

      Thanks for your post.

  • georgeadair
    October 6, 2014

    Very well written Zack. I read the book series “Left Behind” and the more I read my bible the more I realize that this is just not going to happen the way it has been portrayed. If all Christinas are suddenly taken to heaven then what purpose does Jesus have to coming back to us in any form. I once read a story about a “preacher” (can’t remember who) who said that he had a conversation with a 60 foot tall Jesus in the desert and they talked to each other eye to eye. While it was told by a comedian as a joke I would find the audacity of anyone claiming this to be astounding. To even think that Jesus or his Father would have to appear to someone to impress them just proves how false they really are.

  • georgeadair
    October 6, 2014

    Very well written Zack. I read the book series “Left Behind” and the more I read my bible the more I realize that this is just not going to happen the way it has been portrayed. If all Christinas are suddenly taken to heaven then what purpose does Jesus have to coming back to us in any form. I once read a story about a “preacher” (can’t remember who) who said that he had a conversation with a 60 foot tall Jesus in the desert and they talked to each other eye to eye. While it was told by a comedian as a joke I would find the audacity of anyone claiming this to be astounding. To even think that Jesus or his Father would have to appear to someone to impress them just proves how false they really are.

  • anastasiya gutnik
    October 6, 2014

    nice introductory article which might get people to investigate the whole subject of the lies of dispensationalism and chilliasm which are handmaidens of rapture theology. but the bible is not a “story.” that kind of emergent language and deconstruction is simply wrong and brings the word of god to the level of say aesop or hans christen andersen. also with this so-called christian movie it is winterising to note that in the early church actors were barred from baptism unless they gave up their profession. christianity is simply not the same as it was. its doubtful augustine would recognise it today.

  • Numan
    October 6, 2014

    Actually Zack, you have been exposed to the misconnected dots of the A-mill’s and A-Trib’s (see Tim) that are now in full fledge, teeth-gnashing backlash against the success of the Left Behind series (which has been hugely successful in leading the lost to see where predictions and reality merge and leading many to salvation, unlike the milquetoast efforts of the A-Mill’s wandering in lackadaisical blindness about anything regarding the future) since these scoffers (2 Peter 3) are finding their numbers in decline. This is why “seminaries” are becoming known as “faith cemeteries”. Your argument that eschatology has only developed in major leaps in the last 200 years is precisely the pattern of how and when major Biblical doctrines have developed all throughout Church history…it would not be appropriate at the beginning of the Church Age; (Acts 1:6, i.e., “you’re asking too early”, like kids asking if you’re at grandma’s as you’re pulling out of your driveway)…even though THESES SAME DISCIPLES were the ones God eventually revealed the occurrence of the Tribulation before Jesus’ Second Advent to. The first 200-300 years of the Church Age was in the development of the authority of the Scriptures themselves, then major doctrines progressively developed such as the Divinity of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Soteriology, etc., these didn’t instantaneously appear as the A-mill’s would have you believe. It is ONLY APPROPRIATE that the end of the Church Age doctrines would be understood and developed from the Scriptures in the times it would be needed. It is a VERY shallow argument that the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible! If you are reading the first Latin translation from the Greek of the New Testament, then you would be either telling a lie or be an ignorant false teacher. The Greek word “harpozo”=Latin word “rapiemur”= English word “rapture”. There is a pattern of physical translations (“raptures”) of Enoch BEFORE the Noahic Flood. The physical translation (harpazo) of Philip to the wilderness to meet the Ethiopian eunuch was a “rapture”. Your have been given false teaching regarding the Early Church leaders Chiliasm (Latin of Greek word Millennium) beliefs. The majority all early Church Fathers believed that the Return of Christ would be preceded by a great apostasy and His reign on the earth. The Catholic Church began the path away from that doctrine due to their Replacement Theology doctrines, meaning they replace Israel even though the Church was NEVER told in the New Testament to relocate the “Holy City” to Rome (the Church was told to spread out to and in the world), or duplicate the specialized priesthood (all believers are called “saints” and a royal priesthood as in 1 Peter2:9), the New Testament believers of the Church are never related to Jesus as a King as He is with Israel, but as a bridegroom and husband, etc. Get over the FALSE DOCTRINE THAT THE CHURCH HAS REPLACED ISRAEL! The Church does NOT have a definite prophecy of WHEN the “harpazo” (since you are so nitpicky about what translation) will take place but Israel had very DEFINITE PROPHECIES to look for…and we have discovered we (the Bride of Christ) can look over their shoulder to discover the road signs…and that may not be in the few years you apparently grew impatient in expecting in YOUR timetable. I knew you were a false teacher when you said Jack Van Impe was giving dates…HE DOES NOT! He simply points out the potential road signs of approaching events! Which is what Jesus told us to do when he said “look up…your redemption draws near.” (Luke 21:28) There were no direct prophesies of the Church’s beginning and few prophesies about the Church catching away. There were a lot of prophecies about the coming of false teachers though.

  • Video Militia
    October 6, 2014

    Why is it that as a former Christian I find I live a more Christian life than many so-called “followers?” For one thing I don’t hear much of anyone preaching peace and love. Christians everywhere need to wake up! If Jesus is your savior he would NOT be condoning all the selfishness, greed, violence and warfare going on in the world. Sometimes the hardest solution is right solution a la “turn the other cheek.” As human beings, if we are to exist for another 1000 years we need to STOP KILLING EACH OTHER!

    • Akira
      October 7, 2014

      Yes, we should stop killing each other. However, it’s not the Christians you should jump on about that. You should be jumping on the followers of Islam. In the Middle East Christians and Christian villages are being massacred: men, women, and children. Women and girls are being nailed to trees so they can bleed while men rape them and then are killed. They are cutting off Christians’ heads and using them as footballs. So, you’re saying that in this situation, we should just “turn the other cheek?” Also, peace and love are very important, but are not the only teachings in the Bible. If they were, the Bible would be something more akin to a hippie book than the sacred Christian Bible. The Bible also teaches things such as, let’s say, justice and standing for what is good and right in the eyes of God. “Turning the other cheek” in all scenarios is not Biblical or right at all.

      • Video Militia
        October 7, 2014

        Case and point. Christians love to find any excuse to NOT follow the teachings of JESUS. Jesus taught forgiveness and love. That was the profound difference in the Old Testament/New Testament. Muslims need to do the same thing.

        But don’t for a second pretend like our hands are clean of blood with your hyperbolic, straw man story. More Muslims (mostly innocent) have died at the hands of the West in the last 11 years than any amount of reciprocal killing. 100’s of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan. Millions in Vietnam. OHHH but please tell me again how Jesus would approve of this behavior. WAKE UP. You’re not a Christian if you don’t follow Christ’s teachings. Just continue to prove my point.

        • Akira
          October 7, 2014

          Uh, sorry, but it wasn’t a straw man story or a hyperbole. It’s fact, and being of a logical mind, it’s very rare that I would exaggerate.Hmmm, let’s see, did I say Jesus approves of senseless killing? No, I did not. Did I say Christians have never strayed and done something wrong resulting In bloodshed? No, I did not. I believe wholeheartedly in Jesus’ teachings of forgiveness and love, but there IS such a thing as righteous anger. Being Christian doesn’t mean you are suddenly, “Oh, happy, happy. I’ll just sit in a corner and let you do whatever it is you want.” Also, the God of the Old and New Testaments are one and the same because God is never changing. God’s love and forgiveness have ALWAYS been there, and if you look, you’ll see examples of God’s forgiveness in the OT. The difference, as you said, is Jesus. He did teach love and forgiveness, and even exemplified it, and that is way super important. Love, as well, does not always mean “permissiveness” either. Also, over the last 11 yrs, the civilian Muslims killed were killed during a war between countries, not by the world’s Christians. The Christians being killed now, are being killed by Islamic extremist followers who are, in a lot of cases, their countrymen. A war and a religious massacre are two different things. I am NOT in any way saying war is good. It’s sometimes necessary, but NEVER good. Also, on forgiveness. I am a person who is very easy in giving forgiveness, however, that does in no way mean I will allow a person trample over me and take advantage of my forgiving nature. Love and forgiveness are not passive entities that say “do whatever you like.”

          • Akira
            October 7, 2014

            Forgive me for my grammatical mistakes in my last post, haha. It’s driving me crazy that I can’t go back and correct them.

          • Video Militia
            October 7, 2014

            Ask yourself, “WHAT series of events have lead us here?” These acts you speak of, even if they were the norm and not the exception, don’t exist in a vacuum. All of this violence is the DIRECT result of an unethical, unmotivated and disastrous war in Iraq. A war of needless aggression. These militant groups did not exist in great numbers before the U.S. illegally occupied a Muslim country. You can not analyze current events as if they have historical context. There’s one thing for certain, the continued perpetuation of conflict solves NOTHING.

            As for the Christian angle, undoubtedly this country is overwhelmingly Judeo Christian. The people sending us to war are Judeo Christian, the generals, the soldiers. This isn’t a war being fought by Buddists! This nation, a supposedly Christian nation, has been the most un-Christian in its actions and motives for more than a decade now. That is indisputable. Can you name a prominent Christian leader other than the Pope that is actively condemning warfare and speaking about peace?! They don’t exist in this country because the Christian community here is spiritually and biblically bankrupt. They ignore the teachings of Jesus whenever it’s convenient to justify their own dogma. As someone now non-religious but raised in the church, I took more away from Christ’s teachings then I’m afraid all these “believers” have. I’m sad for all that claim to know him yet perpetuate war in their hearts.

          • Akira
            October 7, 2014

            Okay. With the reply you gave, you obviously are not understanding what I’m saying, and am missing my points. To explain my thoughts and views, I would have to write a super long post I really don’t want to or have the time to type out, and I don’t want to get into a religious/political/whatever debate, so I’ll just give some blunt statements. I am not disagreeing with you that war and violence are bad. They are horrible things. I agree that many “believers” are not true to the teachings of Christ, but a lot are. Turning the other cheek sometimes it good, but you shouldn’t turn the other cheek in every situation. There are times when you must stand up and fight back. Jesus taught love and forgiveness, but He did not teach tolerance.
            Your last paragraph holds no significance to anything I’ve said. I never said America was not a Judeo Christian nation. I said the Middle Eastern Christians who have nothing to do with America or the war are being slaughtered. Not all the people involved in the war are Christian. A lot are not. Oh, and actually, the “militant groups” have always been around, if what you’re talking about are Islamic extremists whose goal is to kill the infidels (Christians and Jews) and bring the world under Sharia law. Some of the violence is, but a lot of it is NOT directly linked to the war. I agree that continued conflict solves nothing. That’s obvious in every aspect of life. However, it’s a fact of life that there always will be conflict.

    • Numan Today
      October 14, 2014

      Please find my progressive revelation of God through the Ages for resolving the Angelic Rebellion in the ultimate coming Great White Throne Judgment courtroom.

  • snaleal
    October 6, 2014

    Jesus Christ is coming for HIS church he is not going to rapture it or steal it secretly the world of God says that “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,” Rev 1:7. That means everybody will see his coming, not on FOX news but with their naked eye. Babies and christians are not going to disappear every eyes will see him and everybody will know that Jesus Christ is HERE> The Rapture doctrine is false.

  • Stephen B
    October 7, 2014

    Personally, I don’t care. I mean your article was well written and informative, kudos to you, but the topic of rapture or no rapture…what difference does it make? I’m a depraved human saved by grace. I’ll get what God allows and no pain is without it’s due. I’ll spend an eternity in paradise with my creator in spite of being a sinner. If that means i get to see the tribulation period, oh well. I’ll pack a lunch and praise God through it.

    • snaleal
      October 7, 2014

      Let us not forget Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:, and there are many more that say we need to live in holiness in other words, sin free with no voluntary sin, that means that you did not choose to sin. but it can only be done with the power of the Holy Ghost. Yes it is possible not by my own strength but with God’s.

  • BibleGirl
    October 7, 2014

    Zack, given what the Bible states throughout, I think your idea that the Rapture won’t ever happen and that Revelation isn’t showing specifics of God’s wrath can’t be true.
    Here is why…

    First, no, the whole point of being a New Testament scholar is NOT to be able to predict the rapture.
    There are a number of Bible verses warning against this very thing:

    Matt 24:36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32 is this same verse)

    Matt 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.”

    Matt 24:44 “So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

    Matt 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.” (Mark 13:33-37 is similar)

    1 Thes 5:1-2 “Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”

    This last one is from Christ directly –

    Acts 1:7 “He (Jesus) said to them: ‘It is not for you to know the times or the dates the Father has set by his own authority.’”

    Which leads to the second point…

    Secondly, if the rapture is real and is something that will happen, why wasn’t it mentioned before the “late 18th and early 19th centuries”? It was actually, but I’ll get back to that. But understanding the rapture and end times events, is explained within the Bible itself by God Himself. The Bible teaches that end time
    prophesies won’t be UNDERSTOOD until the time comes for the predicted events to occur. Daniel was given prophesies about the end times, but was told by God, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are
    closed up and sealed until the time of the end.” (Dan 12:9) This was also told to Jeremiah (Jer 23:20
    & 30:24).

    For example, what about the prophesy of the Gog/Magog war described through Ezek. 38 & 39?
    Israel being invaded? How could that happen when Israel didn’t exist again until 1948? How about in Revelation 11:9-12 when the two witnesses are killed and the WHOLE WORLD will see. How can the whole world see? Ah, satellite television. It’s only been in more recent times that prophesies are being fulfilled that were predicted to proceed the Second Coming, that now people can understand them, including the rapture.

    As I mentioned though, the rapture actually WAS mentioned long ago, but church leaders considered those who believed in such things as heretics, so mention of it was rare and suppressed. One example is from the Shepherd of Hermas, writing in the early 2nd Century, making an observation about “the great tribulation that is coming.” He says, “If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.” Puritans mentioned it in the 17th century, such as Puritan leader, Increase Mather. He stated “that the saints would be caught up into the air” and thus escape the world’s final conflagration.

    Thirdly, you completely didn’t understand what your professor was saying to you. We have been in the “last days” ever since Christ arose, yes. And in theory, the Second Coming could have been at any time after that. That is why as believers, we are called to be prepared since we don’t know when His return
    will be, but we’d have signs. The rapture of believers in Christ is an event that could have happened at any time after Christ’s resurrection without signs. That is also why Christians are called to preach the gospel, as a command, so that others may be saved before His return. BUT there would still be things (prophesies)
    that would have to occur before Christ’s return (The Second Coming) which would be signs of his imminent return. We can know the signs of the times as far as when it will be imminent since Christ
    Himself gave us signs of the end of the age in Matt 24.

    Fourth, the term rapture does appear in the Bible. You are not explaining that the original text of the Bible was written mainly in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. The Greek word, “harpazo” meaning “to snatch
    up” (which some Latin translators used then the word “rapio” meaning “caught up” – which is where the English term rapture comes from) was in the original writing of the Bible, found in 1 Thes 4:17.
    It’s describing believers in Christ being caught up, raptured, after the dead in Christ rise first, to meet the Lord in the air. It is also explained in 1 Cor 15:51-52. This section makes it clear that this is not
    metaphorical, but is a true change that occurs. That the mortal/perishable must be covered by immortal/imperishable so that “death has been swallowed up in victory” will be fulfilled (a prophesy in
    Is. 25:8.

    This is discussing a SEPARATE event from the Second Coming because of the nature of rapture and the trumpet issues. Being caught up to heaven actually happened elsewhere in the Bible, with Enoch (Gen 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kin 2:12). Even after the resurrection, Christ’s ascension was described as him being taken up into heaven (Acts 1:9). This act of being caught up to meet Christ can’t be at the Second Coming because at the Second Coming, believers will be RETURNING WITH Christ. There are other
    differences that show that there does have to be a rapture and that it is distinct from the Second Coming:

    RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING DIFFERENCES

    Rapture

    1 Translation of all believers
    2 Translated saints go to heaven
    3 Earth not judged
    4 Imminent, any-moment, no signs
    5 Not in the Old Testament
    6 Believers only
    7 Before the day of wrath
    8 No reference to Satan
    9 Christ comes for His own/He claims His bride
    10 He comes in the air
    11 Only His own see Him
    12 Tribulation begins

    Second Coming

    1 No translation at all
    2 Translated saints return to earth
    3 Earth judged & righteousness established
    4 Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation
    5 Predicted often in Old Testament
    6 Affects all men
    7 Concluding the day of wrath
    8 Satan bound
    9 Christ comes with His own/He comes with His bride
    10 He comes to the earth
    11 Every eye shall see Him
    12 Millennial Kingdom begins

    For the rapture, it is the trumpet of God that is blown (again, 1 Thes 4:16-17), and in the tribulation seven angels each have a trumpet, and the angels are blowing them.

    Fifth, the idea of the rapture is NOT antithetical to the narrative of the scripture. You must not be aware of a lot of themes throughout the Bible. Sure, God is with us through difficult times, however, He has absolutely spared his faithful before WRATH JUDGEMENTS in the Bible, which is completely different.

    Many people have heard the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the story of Noah. In Gen 19,
    God saved Lot and his family before he was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. In Gen 6-9, God saved Noah and his family before he was to destroy the world by flood. It is even mentioned in Matt 24:37 “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.” People carrying on in their ways, meanwhile Noah and his family preparing to be spared, not realizing the wrath about to come. It holds to scripture that he would save his elect before the wrath judgments before Christ’s Second Coming.

    It is even specifically mentioned in 1 Thes 5:9 “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” and especially in Revelation 3:10 “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

    Sixth, the idea of the church “abandoning the world” is not based on an American Christianity focused on self. God made the Jews His chosen people through which He would bring about the Messiah.
    They were to be his ambassadors to the rest of the world, spreading the gospel first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. But the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, so God broke off his dealings with Israel (Jer 3:8), but still never forsook them. The gospel spread to the Gentiles, thus beginning the Church age. The
    rapture is a means to remove the Church – aka Gentiles, so that God can deal with Israel again.

    Finally, throughout the Bible, Christ is referred to as the bridegroom, and those who believe in him (the Church) are referred to as the bride. It is no mistake that this is done since the events that happen leading up to a traditional Jewish wedding a few thousand years ago parallel the death and resurrection of Christ, a rapture and a Second Coming. For more details on these parallels, here is a good resource:
    http://bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html

    Revelation isn’t a “road map” per se, but it definitely is explaining the way the church behaved and will behave through history (including right before the Second Coming), how God intends to pour out His wrath
    judgments onto the earth and how Christ’s Second Coming will occur to finalize in a battle, His reign (and satan being bound), and then peaceful eternity.

    Our salvation isn’t dependent on whether there is a rapture or not, and if there is one, if it occurs before, during or after the tribulation. It is dependent on belief that Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins and resurrected. Because the rapture could happen at any moment, it makes us realize how important it is to be ready for our time here on earth to end, and that we need to spread the gospel to as many as possible
    to prevent them from experiencing a dreadful time of tribulation, and worse, eternity apart from God. There are too many stories, verses and statements by God and Christ to doubt that the rapture is a real event that will happen. I can only hope that you (among many others) study the Bible more and realize this.

  • Tony Venturella
    October 7, 2014

    I’m not sure if it mentions the word rapture directly, but I know the text says he will come like a thief in the night…I’ve always interpreted that as the rapture. The one thing in the article I do very much agree with though is that the book of Revelations is not to be read as a literal road map to the end times. The Bible is written with a lot of room for interpretation. I came to realize this when thinking back on the Old Testament scholars in the times before Jesus…how many of them looked so deeply into the text and got it completely wrong…and their knowledge of the word was much deeper than my own. So I try not to use it to predict, but just know the love of The Lord in my heart and know that is more important than figuring out every detail of what’s to come.

  • snaleal
    October 7, 2014

    The Bible does not agree with the rapture, but our most important concern should be how we stand before God if we want to see Him. Let us not forget Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:, and there are many more that say we need to live in holiness in other words, sin free with no voluntary sin, that means that you did not choose to sin. You may say no man can live sin free that is right, not be our own strength, but by God’s Strength. If we can do it one day we can do it two days if we can do it two days we can do it for a week, a month, a year, 3 years etc. God is powerful but it can only be done with the power of the Holy Ghost. Yes it is possible not by my own strength but with God’s.

    • Chad Daniels
      October 13, 2014

      So you reject justification by faith? What you teach is the exact same thing the Jehovah’s witnesses teach. We are found with him, NOT WITH OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, but with the righteousness which is by faith.

      • Guest
        October 14, 2014

        Argumentum Ad Hominem fallacy, guilt by association. Red herring appeal to emotion.

        Please stick to the facts?

  • Matt K
    October 7, 2014

    This has got to be one of the most arrogant and poorly researched posts I’ve ever read, cheaply dressed up as ‘scholarship.’ It’s one thing to disagree with the timing of the rapture, or simply disbelieve in the biblical concept altogether. However, I take serious issue at your level of contempt for those who actually do believe in the rapture. The title alone is an ostentatious and pretentious display of your hauteur. I would seriously question whether or not this post reflects a spirit of unity or love for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. You presuppose that those who believe in the rapture are simply uneducated, backwoods hicks, who can barely read, probably married to their cousin, and most definitely can’t properly interpret biblical doctrine. While I’m certain there are rapture believers who simply don’t study God’s word, and most definitely find theological studies boring and pointless, there are those same folks in every theological camp. It’s not just the Pre-Mil, Pre-Tribbers. I’ve encountered them across the theological spectrum, including in my own camp.

    I can’t say that I’ve ever heard of Jack Van Impe, but if he is (or was) anything like what you described, I probably would avoid him as well. Just because you have a questionable messenger of certain doctrines, it doesn’t necessarily negate the message. It sounds like the way in which Mr. Van Impe delivered his doctrinal views of the Rapture damaged his witness, certainly, as it appears it was done without much of a spirit of love.

    Your straw man argument about the supposed outworkings of a belief in the rapture is weak. Certainly, there are those Rapture believers who do nothing but sit around watching soap operas, just waiting for Jesus take them outta here; however, most of the ones I know, including myself, are highly involved in various ministries, serving at food kitchens, providing clothing and medical services for the less fortunate, reaching out to the lost by meeting them where they live, providing various assistance to military personnel and their families, etc. The list goes on. I’m not just sitting around doing nothing. In fact, I believe Christians are to “occupy” until He comes….to be about the Father’s business. I would say your argument falls flat again.

    Though a belief in the rapture was not widespread prior to the 19th century, it is intellectually dishonest to assert that nobody believed in it prior to 200 years ago. Even if you’re right, however, about that point, the argument from “newness” does nothing to validate your argument. At the beginning of the Reformation, if the Catholic Church tried to argue that Luther’s views could not have been biblical, due to the fact that they were “new” and nobody in church history ever held those views, would that mean the outcome of the Protestant Reformation is entirely unbiblical? Most certainly not. Again, another of your straw men points exposed.

    While I don’t have time to address every one of your points at present, I plan on coming back to discuss them more. I’ve studied and researched the different eschatological views. I study theology, doctrinal issues, Church history, philosophy, etc., and yet, I still hold a Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib position. Why? Well, a big part of the reason is simply–biblical interpretation. I would have to allegorize or “spiritualize” the portions of scripture pertaining to prophecy to come anywhere close to your position. Once I start doing that, then why can’t I allegorize other portions of scripture? Well, I don’t like the fact that Jesus decided to exclude people with certain habitual sins from His kingdom…welp, I guess I’ll just spiritualize that part to mean something that I like.

    I’ve heard every one of these points before, and I’ve read many pre-mil, pre-trib theologians who have engaged these arguments thoroughly, and have ably refuted every one of them. Any pre-trib theologian worth his/her salt could quickly do the same.

    I’m not trying to say that you aren’t welcome to your views; however, to assert that you know the rapture will never, ever happen…that’s rather presumptuous, and it underscores every one of these terrible points you’re trying to make.

  • Just A Slave
    October 8, 2014

    But what if YOU are wrong? The problem with such bold statements is they are usually wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle. But taking a position of moderation does not make people read blogs…

    • Brendan Murphy
      October 9, 2014

      I hardly see a down side to being wrong about rapture. The author still believes in the return of Christ. It would almost be better for him to be wrong, it would give more time for people to repent…maybe?

  • Zig
    October 8, 2014

    If rapture is wrong, what else may be wrong with your religion. All I ask is you analyze it, look at it empirically, ask the hard questions that come to mind, and figure out what your bible can’t answer. It has some good answers, but it also contains a lot of bad ones.

  • Andy
    October 8, 2014

    “But that is the Second Coming, not the rapture. Those are two very, very different things.”

    So Zack, if you would, Other than the obvious answer that He will come again what do you believe will occur at the second coming of Christ?

  • Josh
    October 8, 2014

    Interesting take on the subject, but the writer lost credibility when he made numerous basic grammatical errors. It’s hard to take a literary work seriously when it is rife with mistakes. Not to mention, I saw no real evidence from the scripture to dispute the idea of a rapture. Additionally, the opinions of the early church and the “silence” on the subject do not change the doctrines of the Bible.

    • Brendan Murphy
      October 9, 2014

      “They will know you are my disciples by your proper grammar amongst each other.” #thingsjesusneversaid

  • Robert
    October 8, 2014

    To quote Bill Cosby from The Cosby Show – “That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard!”

  • greatguy999
    October 8, 2014

    This article is a damnable heresy:

    But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

    2 Peter 2:3; 3:3-4

    • Brendan Murphy
      October 9, 2014

      He wasn’t denying the Lord is coming. He was saying that it won’t be via rapture. The point of this article is that there is no rapture, but their certainly is a return of Christ.

      • greatguy999
        October 11, 2014

        Of course there will be a rapture. Being “caught up” to be with the Lord is totally different from “the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints”. Rapture is not the same as the Second coming of Christ. The two are separated by at least a few years.

  • jedi_penguin
    October 8, 2014

    I belong to a multi-denominational Bible study and it normally is great, but it has proven to be a fraught undertaking to read Revelations with people who believe in a “Left Behind” kind of Rapture when half of our group sees Revelations as being more symbolic than literal. Thank you for this post; it feels very timely for me right now.

  • Johnny
    October 9, 2014

    in the blinking of an eye one will be left and the other will be gone…of course the rapture is going to happen but don’t worry you will not be in it! and to think the danger that you are in for being incorrect and teaching it …wow

    • Brendan Murphy
      October 9, 2014

      Re-read the “blink of an eye” passages. Seriously, re-read them. In it’s context. Then ask yourself this question, “who is being removed, the righteous or the damned?” Those being taken are being taken in judgment not salvation. Those verses are not about rapture but about judgment.

  • Nick
    October 9, 2014

    This post is similar to a book I just read.. Rapturemania.

  • Tj
    October 9, 2014

    I couldn’t take this seriously after I read that the author was “head over heals” (sic) for rapture theology.

  • Jim Sanfilippo
    October 10, 2014

    A rebuttal to “Nobody Is Getting Left Behind (Because the Rapture Is Never, Ever Going to Happen)”: http://jimsanfilippo.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/a-rebuttal-to-nobody-is-getting-left-behind-because-the-rapture-is-never-ever-going-to-happen/

  • cody
    October 10, 2014

    Hm. I think you are wrong is saying that the idea of the ‘rapture’ is antithetical. You are right in saying that God doesn’t pull people out of tribulation but he does always pull them out of his wrath. Story after story shows that in the old testament. Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the passover, God always gave His people a way out of His wrath, not tribulation, not ‘death’ but always from His wrath. That is why I hold to a belief of a rapture. When God pours out His wrath on the earth, I believe that believers will be spared. So I guess that puts me in the pre-wrath camp of timing of a rapture.

  • Clayton Sanderson
    October 11, 2014

    I’m a a-mil/preterist hybrid. I recommend Sam Storms book “Kingdom Come”. It’s a huge project to undertake, but worth it.

    I’m concerned though that you completely deny the rapture, when Paul explicitly talks bout Christ “catching up the believers” in Thessalonians. However, sound biblical theology and exegesis reveals that this is to occur at the parousia (2nd advent).

    There is a huge difference between saying that the world is getting worse and worse, until God mercifully removes his church before a greater tribulation, and saying that God will catch up all believers to himself at the time of his second coming.

    Beware of your flippant statement: “because the rapture is never, ever going to happen”. Christ will return, like a thief in the night.

  • Cladius Tokunboh
    October 11, 2014

    This article is a start in the right direction but the rapture or 2nd coming is never, ever going to happen be cause its behind us. Those events are behind us. It happened to the 1st century believers. Carefully look into one of the three main end time views called preterist. Go with an open bible & mind, prayer, put your presuppositions, biases & denominational leanings to the side for a “moment” & examine the scriptures. Keep audience relevance & time statements in mind as you study. Open your mind to & reexamine: Matthew 16:27-28 ; Matt 24:34. Check out the second coming series#1 by Dr. Kelly Nelson Birks on YouTube.

  • Joe citizen
    October 11, 2014

    Well brothers and sisters in Christ, I have read with great interest Mr. Hunts article as well your opinions of his article. I am a pan-tribulationist, first and foremost I do place my faith in Christ my Savior, and with the Savior I know that I’m going to be ok, no matter what happens.
    Now to the subject of the rapture. As stated I am a pan-tribist. It means, everything pans out in the end. Have a blessed day in the Lord.

  • Travis Steal
    October 12, 2014

    Thanks for speaking up against this!

    The early church leans amillennial, which is what the Orthodox Church teaches.

    For your consideration…by Elder Cleopa of Romania.

    http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_secondcoming.aspx

    • Numan Today
      October 15, 2014

      Was the early church any more or less human with the same sin natures to contend with than we are ? Why would you consider those at the beginning of the Church Age more knowledgeable about the end of the Age than those of us who are seeing it be fulfilled? Having said that, even then, many understood that there would be an great apostasy (which nothing on the scale of the atheistic evolutionary “religion” has ever been as prevalent in history as it has been growing since the humanist’s Enlightenment-Isaiah 5:20,21) prior to the Lord’s return and prior to His establishing an earthly kingdom…it was called “chiliasm”.

  • Numan Today
    October 13, 2014

    Daniel 9:24-27 is God’s answering Daniel’s prayer petition for HIS (Daniel’s) people and city (Jerusalem) in verses 16-19 saying, “O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from THY CITY JERUSALEM, thy holy mountain: because for OUR (Israelites) sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, JERUSALEM and THY PEOPLE (Israelites, Mystery of the Church, the Bride of Christ hadn’t been revealed) are become a reproach to all that are about us….Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.” God sends the explanation through Gabriel that 70 shabuwa’ (units of seven in the Hebrew- most agree implies ‘years’ since it was also 490 years’ worth of unobserved 7th Year Sabbaths that the Jews were removed from the land for 70 years-Lev. 25:4; Jerm.25:11) would pass before the end would come…that would equal 490 years after the command to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. The seventy weeks are divided into three parts:
    – Seven weeks – 49 years, until the city and its walls are rebuilt
    – 69 weeks (7 plus 62), 483 years from the decree, until Messiah the Prince appears
    – A final 70th week to complete the prophecy
    Since Jesus’ arrival is obviously predicted in vs. 25 “…until the (arrival of) the Prince shall be: 7+62 shabuwa’=69 units of seven=483 years. That would mean the decrees of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. would have been the initial command that started the “stop clock”. That collaborates the rebuilding of the walls in the first 49 years (7 shabuwa’) of Nehemiah in the conflict with the hostile neighbors of Jerusalem after the command. Sir Robert Anderson calculated, using a 360-day year (which Israel used in Daniel’s day), calculates 173,880 days from the decree to the triumphal entry, fulfilling the prophecy to the day. “It is customary for the Jews to have twelve months of 360 days each and then to insert a thirteenth month occasionally when necessary to correct the calendar. Taking Anderson’s calculations as reliable, we see a remarkable fulfillment of prophecy. A Gentile king made a decree and 483 years later to the day, Jesus presented Himself as Messiah the Prince to Israel on Lamb picking day (Exodus 12:2; John 12:1,12) before His Passover fulfilment with His crucifixion. Then the “stop clock” is stopped for Israel in prophecy while the focus is directed to a mystery called the Bride of Christ, an ecclesia, another “called out assemble” which eventually was referred to as the Church. The Church was not seen by Jewish prophets when it came OR when it leaves, like a valley between the two peaks of His First Advent and His Second Advent from their perspective…only Israel’s timetable can be the roadmap of the earthly return to restore the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-8). Daniel’s people, the Jews, have a 7 year segment to complete their last portion of the prophecy in the complete restoration of the Kingdom with the coronation of their last King; the King of Kings and Lord of Lord over all the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21), “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one…. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

  • Numan Today
    October 13, 2014

    Daniel 9:24-27 is God’s answering Daniel’s prayer petition for HIS (Daniel’s) people and city (Jerusalem) in verses 16-19 saying, “O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from THY CITY JERUSALEM, thy holy mountain: because for OUR (Israelites) sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, JERUSALEM and THY PEOPLE (who was the Israelites… the Mystery of the Church and the Bride of Christ hadn’t been revealed) are become a reproach to all that are about us….Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.” God sends the explanation through Gabriel that 70 shabuwa’ (units of seven in the Hebrew- most agree implies ‘years’ since it was also 490 years’ worth of unobserved 7th Year Sabbaths that the Jews were removed from the land for 70 years-Lev. 25:4; Jerm.25:11) would pass before the end would come…that would equal 490 years after the command to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. The seventy weeks are divided into three parts:
    – Seven weeks – 49 years, until the city and its walls are rebuilt
    – 69 weeks (7 plus 62), 483 years from the decree, until Messiah the Prince appears
    – A final 70th week to complete the prophecy

    Since Jesus’ arrival is obviously predicted in vs. 25 “…until the (arrival of) the Prince shall be: 7+62 shabuwa’=69 units of seven=483 years. That would mean the decrees of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. would have been the initial command that started the “stop clock”. That collaborates the rebuilding of the walls in the first 49 years (7 shabuwa’) of Nehemiah in the conflict with the hostile neighbors of Jerusalem after the command. Sir Robert Anderson calculated, using a 360-day year (which Israel used in Daniel’s day), calculates 173,880 days from the decree to the triumphal entry, fulfilling the prophecy to the day. “It is customary for the Jews to have twelve months of 360 days each and then to insert a thirteenth month occasionally when necessary to correct the calendar. Taking Anderson’s calculations as reliable, we see a remarkable fulfillment of prophecy. A Gentile king made a decree and 483 years later to the day, Jesus presented Himself as Messiah the Prince to Israel on Lamb picking day (Exodus 12:2; John 12:1,12) before His Passover fulfilment with His crucifixion. Then the “stop clock” is stopped for Israel in prophecy while the focus is directed to a mystery called the Bride of Christ, an ecclesia, another “called out assemble” which eventually was referred to as the Church. The Church was not seen by Jewish prophets when it came OR when it leaves, like a valley between the two peaks of His First Advent and His Second Advent from their perspective…only Israel’s timetable can be the roadmap of the earthly return to restore the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-8). Daniel’s people, the Jews, have a 7 year segment to complete their last portion of the prophecy in the complete restoration of the Kingdom with the coronation of their last King; the King of Kings and Lord of Lord over all the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21), “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one…. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

  • Numan Today
    October 13, 2014

    The word “ecclesia” does NOT mean “church”…it means “called out assembly” and has become associated with our time period in the interim. “Church” is the Greek word kyriakon (adj.) “of the Lord” was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300 A.D. Something the Nation of Israel was never called was the Bride of Christ and Jesus is never called our King as He is with them. The misinterpretation you are making in 2 Thess. 2:3 is that the word for “a falling away” is not ‘harpazo’, it’s “apostasia” or apostasy, i.e., turning from the true Gospel to false teaching…humanism, prosperity gospel, amillennialism, etc. Paul was addressing the concerns of the Thessalonians (who thought they had missed it) about his first letter in regard to the “catching away” (harpazo, i.e., the rapture) in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 when He comes FOR (not WITH as in Rev. 19) the Church Age Bride of Christ will “meet Him in the air”. That is a completely different scenario than that of His 2nd Advent to Earth when He returns (always related to Israel as a King and His Earthly ruling from Jerusalem) in Zechariah 14:4, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large alley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south….And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—”The LORD is one,” And His name one….The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited…And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.” The type or picture pattern we see in Gen. 24 is that of when Abraham’s servant, probably Eliezer (Genesis 15:2) (type of the Holy Spirit) brings Rebecca (type of the Bride of Christ) from her home in a far country where he had given her gifts back to meet Isaac (type of Jesus Christ) in the field and he took her back to his mother’s tent. In all this, we see the coming together of Isaac and Rebekah as a remarkable picture of the coming together of Jesus and the church.
    – A father desires a bride for his son
    – A son was just accounted as “dead” and “raised from the dead” A nameless servant is sent forth to get a bride for the son
    – The servant’s name is actually Eliezer, meaning “God of help” or “helper”
    – The lovely bride is divinely met, chosen, and called, and then lavished with gifts
    – She is entrusted to the care of the servant until she meets her bridegroom
    Both Rebekah and the church:
    – Chosen for marriage before they knew it (Ephesians 1:3-4).
    – Necessary for the accomplishment of God’s eternal purpose (Ephesians 3:10-11).
    – Destined to share in the glory of the son (John 17:22-23).
    – Learn of the son through his representative.
    – Must leave all with joy to be with the son.
    – Are loved and cared for by the son.
    Both Isaac and Jesus:
    – Were promised before their coming.
    – Finally appeared at the appointed time.
    – Were conceived and born miraculously.
    – Given a special name before birth.
    – Offered up in sacrifice by the father.
    – Brought back from the dead.
    – Head of a great company to bless all people.
    – Prepared a place for their bride.
    – Had a ministry of prayer while the bride comes.

  • Rick Munro
    October 14, 2014

    I say this simply in response to what you have written above so it is said without judgement. But for the same reason you have written above many people who think they are Christians will not experience the rapture, because if we have real faith spoken of in the Bible, we would believe the Bible completely and know that in it it explicitly tells us of the rapture, it doesn’t need to say the word. The word of God warns us countless times of the rapture, yes it doesn’t say rapture but rapture means “snatching away” or catching up, that it does mention many many times. Now i want to make a few statements here. Firstly, your post shows that you did believe it at one time in your life, you had faith that we will meet Jesus in the sky and not have to endure the Tribulation, but because it didn’t happen when you wanted it to, you lost faith and chose to stop believing in it. What you are telling people here is that they should believe that God is going to protect them through Tribulation rather than saving them from it, which is completely false and against what Jesus says. Be careful what you tell people, we will have to answer for everything we have done, thought and said. Finally, You’ve used a picture from a Hollywood movie, Hollywood knows nothing about the The Truth and Satan uses Biblical stories and puts things in them to plant seeds, whether it be a quick shot of a naked woman or cursing for his purposes. Gods word says that in the end times people will deny such an event because they have too much to look forward to in their life, too many plans to want to leave “Too soon”. Just because people choose not to believe in something, doesn’t mean its not going to happen. I find myself excited, i look up into the sky daily and i cant help but feel the overwhelming truth i feel that there will be a day very very soon where the faithful will be whisked away from the evil of this world. We have carnal minds and because day by day people go on and on with life and everything seems so normal, so how could it all stop? how could millions be removed all of a sudden? We cannot comprehend this happening because we don’t have the capacity, but, in Jesus we can have faith. He is knocking, the day is upon us, in the twinkling of an eye, whether we like it, refute it or have lost hope in it, as quick as you can click your fingers, it will happen. The Bible says when we least expect it…In this case, when we aren’t expecting it. People love to argue, people love to fight and make excuses to justify why things wont happen, but when that imminent hour comes, that will set the record straight and Jesus will win the argument once and for all. I am not a perfect Christian, i have a long journey but i believe in every word of God, not just what suits me or doesn’t scare me. To K Elizabeth Danahy, God never once said you cant have plans on earth, he didnt say you must sit in your room and read your bible and wait, yes we must be ready and be expectant but we werent told to stop living. I want to leave you with this; would you rather stay on earth to live out your plans for the next 30-50 years or be taken away by Jesus? It a nobrainer isn’t it, and this thing about the rapture being “invented” is not of God, just because a name was invented for a certain event, does not mean it wasn’t prophesied in the Bible. I will end in saying this: Pray, read your Bible and ask The Almighty God through Jesus to tell you the truth, don’t listen to the first post that pops up to answer your question and give you a sense of comfort, because its false comfort, the only one who can provide you with that, is Jesus. Keep Well

  • Ian Nairn
    October 14, 2014

    Are you saying we are going to go through God’s wrath? It seems you are confusing suffering due sinful men and the effects of sin with God’s actions. When God has judged on this planet, he has always made a way out for the believers. The first such judgement was in the Garden when God judged Adam, Eve and the serpent, but provided a way out of the curse, by the eventual death of “the seed of a woman”. The second judgement by God was with the flood and he provided an ark for Noah and his family, the only righteous people on the planet, and animals to replenish the earth. The final time God judged man was at Sodom and Gomorrah and again God removed the righteous Lot and his family out of the way. God always removes the righteous when he is bring his wrath, which current is above every sinner on earth (John 3:36).

    Remember the only we really know how great we need a saviour is when we know how great a sinner we are. Remember that Jesus talked about Hell than he did about heaven as God’s abode, because he was warning people that judgement was coming and not to fall in God’s wrath. Jesus didn’t come to condemn, because we are already condemned ourselves, but if we aren’t show just ho bad we are before God, we can’t really know how badly we really need him.

  • Numan Today
    October 14, 2014

    Please find my attached chart of my version of the Dispensation panorama. Please note the distinguishing characteristics of the different “called out assemblies” in their chronological order. This shows the incremental increases that God has (and will) make in revealing Himself to the point until He is actually ruling in Person (in the flesh) and even then rebellious mankind will join Satan which then culminates in the courtroom of the Great White Throne Judgment. Each dispensation proves that fallen man always fails his part of the covenant given in each testing dispensation (which is a period time period that has a particular person or people who are God’s client representative on the earth ,i.e., Adam & Eve, the Children of Israel, the Bride of Christ, etc.) Mankinds purpose in resolving the Angelic Conflict will be accomplished in proving that God is just and fair.

  • Numan Today
    October 14, 2014

    Please find the Dispensational Revelation chapter Chart

  • Guest
    October 14, 2014

    Pre-wrath-er here. There is a Rapture…it is at the Second Coming. Same thing, or so close together it matters not. Post-trib, pre-wrath, pre-millenial.

    We are appointed to tribulation; not to wrath. Types: Noah rode out the flood…he wasn’t taken somewhere in the sky. Lot: was hidden in a cave…he wasn’t taken somewhere in the sky. Passover: hidden in their homes in Goshen…not somewhere in the sky. Rahab & family: hidden in her house…not in the sky.

    Enoch was not ‘raptured’ out of anything…or if he was…Noah and the rest were ‘left behind!’

    The scriptures prophesy that salvation will be at Jerusalem. At the sound of the LAST trumpet (not the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh) we will rise to meet the Lord in the air as He descends to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem. The valley created by His feet will provide a path of escape for Jews TO JERUSALEM where He will already be, just as Moses divided the sea. He will provide a fire by night and a cloud by day surrounding Jerusalem, which will be the new ‘Ark’ while His wrath is poured out on the WORLD, not on Jerusalem, because Jerusalem will already have received hers.

    The date. Knowable to the year-ish; not knowable to the day or hour, which the Father has kept in His own provenance. 6000 years appointed for work; 1000 years of rest.

    Jacob worked seven times for Rachel, gained Leah; then seven more times for Rachel, gains Rachel. This being from God calling Abraham in Mesopotamia (not Haran) 2080 to 4040, and from 4040 to 6000. A generation of jubilees.

    Jesus the Christ crucified the year 4000; Jerusalem destroyed the year 4040, as He said. One generation.

    Nebuchadnezzar’s madness: Israel’s madness. Seven times from when the kingdom was removed until humility…then restoration. Upon acknowledgement that God alone appoints men’s rulers, and upon acceptance of Him (Jesus) whom He (the Father) appoints. 4040 to 6000.

    It is 5984-ish. Who hears?

    • Guest
      October 14, 2014

      P.S. The “Day of the Lord” is the “Seventh Day” is the “Sabbath Day” is the “Millennial Reign.”

      It begins in wrath, and it ends in wrath…with the new following. A thousand-year day. As say the scriptures.

      Too simple for the proud, simple enough for a child.

    • Numan Today
      October 15, 2014

      Enoch was MOST DEFINITELY “instantly transported” off of the earth (Genesis 24; Hebrews 11:5), the same as the word harpazo. You don’t have to believe the facts, but you at least have to acknowledge it to be truthful. I totally agree that Noah & family were left behind…that’s why they are a type of the tribulation 144,000 Jewish Evangelists of Rev. 7:12:4-8; Rev.12: 1,2,14; . I also use the word picture of God’s chosen being preserved in the ark as a picture of the believers being preserved in Jesus Christ through the Tribulation, but that is not for eschatology purposes, only creating mental imagery for someone I’m witnessing to. The Church (the “called out assemble” which is the Bride of Christ, not the “called out assembly” called the Children of Israel) is definitely not mentioned AT ALL throughout chapters 6-19,i.e., the Tribulation/Great Tribulation. She was the total center of attention being given by the Lord Jesus Christ through John until chapter 4, and she is not heard from again until she appears as the adorned Bride of Christ in chapter 20.Please find my attached Revelation Chapter Outline.

      • Guest
        October 15, 2014

        I did not say that Enoch was not “instantly transported off the earth”…you have the wrong focus.

        I said that he was not taken ‘out of’ anything, i.e. he was not removed from ‘tribulation.’ Enoch’s life overlapped Noah’s by some 100 years; Enoch was not removed at the start of a ‘tribulation’ because that would have Noah being ‘left behind.’ Noah actually went THROUGH the tribulation in his boat.

        But that the rapture happens at the LAST trumpet is most obvious from Paul’s comments; how then can you suggest that it happens before the FIRST trumpet?

        Also, the ‘wedding feast’ is in Israel, around Jerusalem, to which all the birds of the air are called. Thus the ‘wedding’ is where the feast is…at Jerusalem.

        Also, the five foolish virgins do not claw their way to heaven and bang on the clouds…they make their way to where the wedding is, and are turned away. I.e. they go to Israel and Jerusalem and are turned away.

      • Guest
        October 15, 2014

        P.S. The fact that Enoch was taken some 669 years before the Flood speaks more of Enoch as a type of Jesus’ ascending to His Father’s side, than it does to the rapture.

  • Ian Campbell
    October 15, 2014

    Of course the Bible speaks about the rapture. The word does not appear, but the issue does. Just because some overzealous, rigid, religious guys twist scriptures to support their point of view does not mean that what they are saying is wrong. It just means they are bigoted. ????

  • Numan Today
    October 16, 2014

    Please find my Differences Between the Rapture and the 2nd Advent Table below.

  • Numan Today
    October 16, 2014

    Please find Clarence Larkin’s Offices of Christs and the Two Advents Chart Below
    http://www.blbclassic.org/study/larkin/dt/00toc.cfm#charts
    …and for an accurate insight for those who are actually teachable, please read Larkin’s Dispensational Truths book at this site.
    http://www.blbclassic.org/study/larkin/dt/

  • Numan Today
    October 16, 2014

    Please find my “Differences Between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming” table below.

  • Numan Today
    October 16, 2014

    Please find the fantastic illustration of Clarence Larkin’s attached called the “The Perspectives of Prophecy”. Thanks Zack for giving me a great teaching opportunity, brother!!! The Lord will bless you in spite of yourself (smile).

  • Ann
    October 17, 2014

    Nothing in this article even came close to leading me to believe there won’t be a rapture… Just because the word “rapture” isn’t in the Bible? Really? I actually got a lot more out of the comments… so thanks, commentators.

  • Darryl Willis
    October 23, 2014

    Thank you. Excellent and timely. I was raised in a tradition that did not believe in the premillenneal doctrines or the rapture–so it’s always encouraging to see folks who have thought it through.

  • Becky Anderson
    October 26, 2014

    Hi, my name is Becky Anderson. I have been in great bondage for almost 2 years suffering in the hands of a cheating husband,we were happy and leaving well until he meant his old time girl friend and he started dating her outside our marriage before you knew it he stoped caring and taking care of his own family it was to the extent that he was planning to get married to her and divorce me his own wife, i have cried and reported him to his family but he never listened to any one but to cut my story short i came in search for a real spell caster who could destroy their relationship and make him come back to me and our 2 kids on my search i saw people making testimony on how their marriage where restored by Esango Priest i pick his email and i narrated my story to him and he agreed to help me and after performing a spell on the second day both had a quarrel and he beat his girlfriend up and he came home begging for i and my little kids to forgive him that his eyes are clear now that he will never do any thing that will hurt his family again and promise to be a caring father and never cheat again.I am so so happy that i did not loose him to the girl. all appreciation goes to Esango Priest for you are a Great spell caster and to whom this may concern if you have a cheating husband or wife or you need your ex lover back again. you can as well email him on (esangopriest@hotmail.com or esangopriest@gmail.com) or you can call him +2347089985067.

  • Bonnie McCann Roberts Godfrey
    December 30, 2014

    The word rapture is not found in the bible. The gathering of the saints is mentioned by Paul. This gathering includes the resurrection of the dead saints and the rapture of the alive saints. Jesus said that he would resurrect believers on the last day. There are two major resurrections. One for the just and one for the unjust. When is the last day? The last day is the day of the Lord. The gathering of the saints begins the day of the Lord. The Left Behind series teaches a pre-tribulation gathering of the saints which is a lie. There are not any scriptures in the Bible that would backup a pre-tribulation gathering. The apostle Paul wrote in II Thessalonians chapter 2:1-5, (Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him, that you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, not by letter as if from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not that when I was with you I told you these things. This time period that Paul is talking about is the tribulation period. He said that the gathering of the saints would not take place till after this period. Jesus said in the book of Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 that immediately after the tribulation of those days that they would see the sign of the son of man in the sky and that he would send forth his angels to gather his elect from heaven and earth. After he gathers the saints he will then pour out his wrath on those that are left on the earth.

  • Gary Holdorf
    January 1, 2015

    If the rapture is not going to happen, that tells me 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is not correct. Can you explain to me, if this is true about the rapture, these verses? Are they not true in the ONLY book of truth? Did Paul write outside God’s inspiration to tell of his own opinion?

    What I’m looking at in verse 17, it talks about we who are alive, (in Christ), shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (with the dead in Christ), IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, I repeat, CAUGHT UP, and MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR! Enoch, in Genesis 5 was caught up by God. 2 Kings 2:11 says that the prophet Elijah went up “by a whirlwind into heaven by a chariot.

  • Gary Holdorf
    January 1, 2015

    True Christians are looking forward for our Lord’s calling us up. Why would it cause fear?

  • Gary Holdorf
    January 1, 2015

    Also read 2 Corinthians 12:2. The Apostle Paul describes a man….who was caught up to the 3rd heaven. True, the word “rapture” is not written in the bible, but if it’s not going to happen, then how are these verses saying it will not or is not possible it WILL happen? God walks us thru this life, yes, and Jesus came to save US! Satan is the god of this world. So, if the rapture doesn’t happen, then our Lord’s church deals with the antichrist as well. What happens when you take light away? It goes dark. You take the light of Jesus’s church away, then there is nothing left but darkness. Isn’t satan known also as the prince of darkness? Working thru his antichrist? My 3 posts, if you can prove to me, that the day the Lord calls His church up, is not going to happen, then you are the first one to prove the bible false. I’m trying to expose truth, and not anger. Please, believe the word of God.

  • Trevor
    January 8, 2015

    EVERYONE, DON’T LISTEN TO THIS GUY. READ THE BIBLE AND YOU’LL SEE THAT THE RAPTURE IS REAL. THE ONLY REASON FOR THE RAPTURE IS TO SAVE THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW HIM CORRECTLY. JUST LIKE THE DAYS OF NOAH WHEN HE WAS SAVED ON THE ARK. READ THE BIBLE!!! DON’T LISTEN TO PEOPLE UNLESS IT IS BIBLICAL AND THIS ARTICLE IS NON BIBLICAL.

  • citizenthompson
    January 21, 2015

    I had an interesting thought regarding god and the rapture. What if God did exist and was as picky and specific as all these fundamentalist religions say. They all say you need to do different things to be “saved”. At most, 1 religion could be right. But, religious tradition being a thousand year long game of “telephone”, it’s almost certain they’ve all got it wrong by now. Which means, if the rapture means all the saved people are taken up to heaven, what does the rapture look like if nobody makes the cut. If nobody meets Gods strict criteria, nobody rises to heaven, and the rapture could have happened any time in the last couple thousand years. If there is a God, it’s entirely possible we’ve been left behind ages ago.

  • CyPontuo
    March 25, 2015

    Any day means be ready any day . It can happen any day like in days of Noah many were carrying on like normal. Few will find but just as the ark door was salvation From death pre flood Jesus is the door to Life that never perishes . I agree date predicting and false prophecy can be an escape form seeing the contrast of Jeesus great power of light in darkness and power made perfection our weakness I know He never snatched us away from trouble I. Many view points, and too many often blame God for hard times yet that’s where the proof of our faith and the power of Jesusnis made strong and blossoms in a storm so to speak. But if you read closer He does take us away – Exodus in fact means leaving , leaving what ? Well that was a form of slavery in Egypt a formless nation of slaves and scattered people who cried out for hope and help and The Lord heard and made them new and took them “out” . That was a new beginning setting a new tone and new journey and new life as well as a promised land a yet to be destination with that new covenant and new birth . So I don’t think totally it is true we are deceived by thinking He would take us out and deliver us it’s not all a cop out or believing some bad theology. There is junk out there imwillmgive you that but remember there will be a falling away and an apostasy and the illiterate thing iswhymore And more peoplewill sacrifice and compromise for a more worlds ear TicklingGospeleasier to swallow than true repentance . True repentance the willingness to wanttochangenand be sanctified is not fear but a blessing when we are born again of Spirit , expecting Him brings urgency to repentance I feel , sure we always have grace and mercy as the only solid rock and cornerStoneToheaven and love needs to be the lesson andnlesrningnand applying that to a broken world but putting offexpectingHimanyndayleaves too much room toletthelusts andfleshlythingbegin to nest again in our Heartsandnmindsnand a bride needs ready. AweddingAndcelbration Awaits and we are being prepared like you said and there is much in Scripture in line with the wedding in Jewish history and there are parallels and allegory and fig trees getting ripe . Saying you misunderstood rapture is not the same as it will never . Admitting gray area and that false teaching surrounding rapture is true but does not meant there is no urgency . Also a falling away is peculiar to me that many seem to be abandoning rapture (a sign?) now when not long ago it was widely accepted . Also there is clear indications that many were into rapture similar long before the popular very recent stunning new find about 1800’s just made it up thing. like you said.

  • CyPontuo
    March 25, 2015

    Sorry my iPad not letting me do stuff hope you can make sense of it . You can if you read carefully do agree much we need to learn to love one another and be that salt and light here and now and trust even through the valley and shadow of death ok peace be with you

  • Shane Haley
    May 16, 2015

    Notice Christ is returning from the WEDDING, after he takes his Bride…Luke 12:35-41 New King James Version (NKJV)The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant
    35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and[a] not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

    Feast of Trumpets / Rosh Hashanna
    Isaiah 26:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
    9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
    Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
    For when Your judgments are in the earth,
    The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
    Isaiah 66:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
    23 And it shall come to pass
    That from one New Moon to another,
    And from one Sabbath to another,
    All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

    1. All the Spring Feasts were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming, and on the exact day of the feast. All the Fall Feasts picture the second advent, and the Feast of Trumpets is the first of the fall feasts.
    2. The Feast of Trumpets is when the “last trump” of the rapture of 1 Cor 15 is blown.
    3. The Feast of Trumpets is known as the Wedding of the Messiah, and the Church is the Bride of Christ, and the rapture is when the Church is caught up to heaven to be wed with Christ.
    4. The Feast of Trumpets happens on the “new moon”, which is 29.5 days after the last one, meaning it might occur on the 29th or 30th day, nobody knows for sure. “Of that day or hour no man knows” is an expression referring to this feast, and thus, the rapture.
    5. “Of that day or hour no man knows, but my Father only” is an expression used by a groom when asked when his wedding will be. He says this because it is his Father that will tell him when his preparations on the bridal chamber are completed and it is time. Again, the wedding pictures the rapture.
    6. The “Open Door” of the rapture in Matt 25, and Rev 3, & Rev 4:1 is a symbol of the Feast of Trumpets. [Ezek 46:1] “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

  • James B. Franklin
    May 26, 2015

    We’ll all find out soon enough if what we BELEIVE in is BS or not. If there is nothing beyond this existence, then it doesn’t matter. No one can PROVE anything!! That is what the basis of the word FAITH is! Wouldn’t it be nice if there was an IPhone on Mt Sanai or GOLGOTHA or at the TRANSFIGURATION?!?!?! There wasn’t! If everything is smoke up our skirt, SO WHAT?!?! We won’t know the difference. What if it isn’t all a bunch of BS? Then WOE TO THEE that did not take heed. GOD BLESS YOU . . . . . yer gonna need it. . . . . .

  • Julie Russon
    September 21, 2015

    Well you will certainly have a shock when it happens. Because it will happen, whether you want it to or not. God bless!

  • tmunson15
    September 27, 2015

    total rationalization …..maybe you might consider joining the ‘rapture is never going to happen club’ but i would encourage you ask yourself one question… what if he’s wrong?

  • Cross67
    September 28, 2015

    I agree wholeheartedly with this article with the exception of throwing away of the term or word “rapture”. Just as Zach points out that the word “trinity” isn’t in the Bible and goes on to justify that word stating “But the concept of a triune God does appear throughout the New Testament.” Well, the same can be said about a “rapture”. The idea can be found in 1 Thess. 4:16-18, 2 Thess. 2:1-2, Matt. 24:30-31, etc… The word “rapture” is latin for 3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.
    4.
    Theology the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth. We can see this expressed in the texts given and also in 1 Cor. 15:50-52.

    So semantics aside, Jesus tells us that He will come again and gather His elect from all four corners of the earth, that He will come in the clouds and that we will be “caught up” to Him or already be with Him and that it will happen in a “moment, in the twinkling of an eye” and at a time that will catch the world off guard like a thief (but not the church that is waiting and ready for Him…1 Thess. 5:1-5).

    Two events taking place at the same time….The Second Coming of Christ and our gathering together with Him in the clouds (Rapture/Catching away/ Being caught up). There is a Second Coming and at that time there will be a Rapture of His children to be with Him forever more ;-). That is something to be excited about and look forward to :-).

  • ieyke
    September 28, 2015

    “most of us in the church are bad at church history”
    A hilariously apt summary of Christianity and most other mythologies too.

  • Stephanie
    September 29, 2015

    I think that you have unfortunately gone from one extreme to another. No Jack was not correct, and no Revelation is not all about prophesying our future. It is a lot about hope, and it is about us changing to be like Christ so that we will be like Him when we see Him (as much like him as a saved-sinner can be), but the rapture is completely true, and by not including this, we are doing those who are unsaved a disservice. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians 4:15-18 (BLB). The word rapture actually comes from the words caught up in these verses. The truth of the rapture is meant to comfort believers.

  • Hobo from hobro
    September 30, 2015

    What is eternity? As finite beings how can we begin to comprehend such a concept. And justice? Wouldn’t a just God eventually release souls confined to the torment of Hades? Even the worst will eventually endure more suffering than they ever caused on Earth. Even Hitler and Stalin and Ghengis Khan, and you name the name, in the course of endless time, will suffer more than the hordes to whom they brought death and misery. Not to mention you and me and our petty peccadillos, so tell me what justice is (it is often symbolized by using a scale) when your God will sanction and permit the torture of any human souls for eternity…tell me…

  • Charlotte Doueiry
    October 27, 2015

    So you all don’t believe in the 666?

  • Cherry
    March 27, 2016

    Catching away means the same thing as rapture which if you study your bible not only in your translation version but also in the original Greek the rapture of the church was talked about several times in the bible. We often say things that can mean several different things or one word can have the same meaning. Sometimes we read the bible with our human understanding instead of allowing God to give us the wisdom to read and interpret it with our spiritual understanding. He wants you to enjoy life be happy not worrying about when the time comes. He told his people of all that is to come to pass so they could have hope knowing they have something better coming there way not to scare them in doing what he say.. There was and still is a lot of pain and suffering ect.. In the world he said he came for the sinners not the righteousness. To give them hope. You can go to school for knowledge which is greAt but the knowledge you get from Christ is so much better. Sometimes by allowing professors to guide you and teach you could also stear you down the wrong path. You are to be taught not by man which is of this world but of God which is Not of this world. In the last days people will think what’s wrong is right and what right is wrong and there so blinded with in them self that their mind will be hard to change. I’m glad I serve a powerful and merciful God! not a god everyone makes him out to be. Only by grace are we saved! The spirit of rebelliousness is what alot of the world has today! It’s all about them selves.. We as humans are not perfect we all sin everyday. People think beings christian ect. Mean you can’t do nothing but in reality you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength! With him comes this strength and piece and your eyes are opened. The world no not for what they do Sayeth the lord for I am near! !

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